LIFE012-Improv Your Life
[Speaker 2]
Woohoo! We're live again. We are live again.
[Cliff]
Again.
[Speaker 2]
I don't know about you, I was dead all weekend.
[Cliff]
I just, I'm alive. There is something to be said. We talked about personas, right?
And so this version of Cliff Ravenscraft hasn't been here since last week.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, we have certain, I have podcast persona. I wouldn't say that it's that different from regular persona.
[Cliff]
Oh yeah, we're not, yeah. But there is something that's unique and distinct about podcast Cliff live on the internet versus not podcast live Cliff on the internet. Yeah.
And not necessarily that my values are different, not necessarily that I show up and treat people different. I mean, there are some people it's like, oh man, this person's not the same in real life as he shows up in that television program or whatever. Yeah.
Not talking about that, but there is something unique to this experience that calls forth from me something that I really enjoy. And when the camera's not on and when we're not live, there's an element that it's not that it's missing, but that same outlet isn't there for some portion of who I am.
[Speaker 2]
It's such a great phrase about the outlet being there. Like what parts of you get to show up in this arena that might not otherwise. And so yeah, it becomes an outlet.
Beautiful, beautiful way to say it. And today we're going to have another certain part of us that's going to show up because we're going to be improvising on the show today. Well, not that we're not right now.
I don't know. Are you following a script?
[Cliff]
No, we improvise every episode, but today is a super special improvisational experience.
[Speaker 2]
Improvisational. Improvisational. Yeah.
[Cliff]
What she just said.
[Announcer]
Welcome to Life, the ultimate choose your own adventure game with hosts Cliff Ravenscraft and Daphne Scott. Join this dynamic duo as they explore the profound concept of life as a thrilling adventure blending ancient wisdom and modern psychology. Embrace the joy of living with presence, creativity and playfulness.
It's time to navigate the game of life together. Are you ready to play? Let the adventure begin.
[Cliff]
Let the adventure begin.
[Speaker 2]
You know what stood out to me today? I paid attention to the words. I think last week, last week, you're like, well, words stood out.
I'm like, nothing. I was doing something else. Welcome to Life.
Oh, I like that. Right at the beginning. Welcome to Life.
Yes. So we are welcoming ourselves and you, dear listener, or watcher, I guess, if you're watching us live. I guess you could be watching us.
We are welcoming you to Life. And today we do have a very special episode because we are improvising, if you will. We're going to do a fun game.
We are going to, at the root, what we're going to be doing is Cliff, and I'll have you talk about your cards. Cliff has a stack of cards that he has created, or a handful, I guess. Stack sounds like thousands.
[Cliff]
I have probably about 150 to 200 cards.
[Speaker 2]
Okay, it'll be a very long show because we're going to do all of them. Just kidding. No.
But Cliff is going to pull a card. I have not seen any of these cards. I mean, maybe you've read one to me, but I don't know what, we don't know what's going to get pulled.
And then we are going to comment, talk. I think some of them are questions. Some of them are statements, I think.
[Cliff]
Well, I have a lot of different cards. I'm going to go mostly with question cards. So I actually have, I pulled out, let's see here, one, two, three, four.
I have five potential blue question cards that I'm familiar with the questions because I wrote them on the cards. Right. I also have another deck of cards that are not my questions, and I've never looked at these before.
[Speaker 2]
Okay.
[Cliff]
And so there are five random questions that could be completely new to either of us, or to both of us.
[Speaker 2]
To both of us, I love it. So at the essence, the show is going to be us pulling these cards, and then we have to address the questions and give some meaningful commentary as best we can on the cards. However, however, we are really talking about improvising in life.
I've caught it. Improvising in life. And what does that mean?
And this comes from my background. For those of you who may not be aware, if you may not be aware, I trained at Second City. I was there for about five years, went through their full program there, and then did sketch comedy for quite a while with a dear group of friends of mine.
So I have a pretty good background in improvising. And I learned, it was so interesting, Cliff, because it was around that time that I was also really getting into mindfulness. And, you know, being intentional in life and kind of going through my waking up process.
And it was fascinating to me what I learned through improvisational theater and how much of that really blended into the idea of being mindful and intentional in your life. So we're going to talk about, first, I think, before we get into the fun part, we're going to do the un-fun part of the show first. But I want to talk a little bit about improvising.
And, you know, right at the, when we were, before we went through our introduction here, like I said, like, are you using a script? And you're like, no. And people would say to me like, oh my gosh, I could never do improvising.
I could never do it. And I kind of like to point out to them, you're doing it right now. And so how does it show up in life?
I was having a conversation with my brother the other day, and we were talking about, you know, all the things that can go wrong. For example, I walked into my garage the other day, and I was going to do some recording at my studio set up in there. And I, you know, opened the door, went in, and then I closed the door and I heard, just this horrible screeching.
As I watched the cable that controls the door unravel itself and snap into, I'm like, perfect. Of course, in that moment, I had to make a decision, right? Do I, how am I going to get this garage door back down?
Am I going to just go ahead and go with recording? Or where am I going to land at this point, right? So I had to improvise in that moment.
How did I want to address this? So I'd be curious, just in the spirit of improvising, knowing what we've talked about in this brief conversation, how does that show up for you on your day-to-day sort of life?
[Cliff]
Yes, because in life, we're oftentimes confronted with unexpected, sometimes inconvenient, and yes, even at times, undesirable experiences.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, they're particularly undesirable when I had a different idea planned.
[Cliff]
Yes, I have my expectation of exactly how this scenario is going to play out, and then something slightly altered from that expectation shows up. And then the question is, how do I handle the situation? Do I react from a script, or do I actually see this for what it is?
And then take in new data, ask myself, what do I desire to do with what is? And based upon my desire and what currently is, what's my response? What is the improv that I'm going to do in this scenario?
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, totally. And so the other parts of that, Cliff, and I love it, and this is why I thought this would be such a great conversation, and just a fun way to play today, is there's also a part of being present, what you're talking about, right?
[Cliff]
Absolutely.
[Speaker 2]
Right, like, oh, I'm noticing, we talked about this on last week's show too, and we did a lot of the work, went through the work of Byron Katie, like being present to, what are the stories I'm telling myself, right? This thing just happened, what am I telling myself? What's the narrative I'm making up?
Oh, is this narrative helpful? Isn't it helpful? I'm about to react.
I mean, all of those things start to play a part in the idea of being able to improvise effectively in our life, right?
[Cliff]
Yeah, I've been continuing to read Loving What Is. I've been reading one of the interactions that she does in the book with people, each reading session, so usually one to three a day, I'll read those back and forth. And what I love, and what I pull up, is how many times what people are experiencing in the moment is not the present moment, they're experiencing the past and or the future.
And it's an imagined past, and it's an imagined future. And they're not able to experience what currently is.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yes. And I can tell you, in the real practical aspect when I was performing, and they would call this being, getting up in your head, basically. And I'm telling you, I'll release it at some point, I wrote an essay on this, our teachers could see this a mile away.
And you get called out on it quite a bit, you're in your head. And what they were really pointing to was, you weren't paying attention to what was really going on in front of you. So you were suddenly getting more consumed with, this is a real common thought, I have to say something funny, right?
Or somebody would have said something that you thought of a funny line to it, a funny response, but the scene has already moved forward two or three or four seconds, it's happening very quickly. And someone's already said two or three, four sentences, but you're desperate.
[Cliff]
Yes, but I had that happen in this podcast, because seriously, right after you talked about going to Second City, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna ask Daphne, I bet you have no idea what my minor was in college, but the time had moved on, we're down here, but now look, I'm desperate to get this one in Daphne. What was your minor in college? I was a theater minor.
[Speaker 2]
A theater minor, were you really?
[Cliff]
I was, I was a theater minor.
[Speaker 2]
Cliff, I had no idea.
[Cliff]
Yeah, well, I wasn't in college for too long, it was only two and a half years before I dropped out. I was bored, it's like, listen, I have no idea what I wanna do with my life, and there's no degree here that I wanna do. But yeah, I was a theater minor, and I was just gonna say that while I didn't go through an entire program, I did have one class of my acting class that was an improv day.
[Speaker 2]
It was an improv day?
[Cliff]
Yeah, we did it, yeah, one whole class period. Well, actually, we talked about improv, we discussed what improv is, and then one whole class period, we did improv. Did you like it?
I did, yeah. All of our class members were in an elevator that had stopped, and boom, go.
[Speaker 2]
What a great scene. I will tell you, and I got this from the office, the first thing to do if you're trapped in an elevator is establish a P-corner. That's just a safety tip for you.
A P-corner? Okay. Just depending on how long you're trapped in it.
That's your advice for today, take it. Thank you, excellent. Yeah, thank you, that's really helpful.
Okay, go ahead, because you said you just had that happen, right? You had a comment you were gonna make.
[Cliff]
No, well, that's exactly what I was saying, is like, cause I was totally, it's like, okay, so Daphne was talking about Second City, she was talking about improv and all this other stuff, and I thought I might be able to just really quickly just drop in. This is something that Daphne doesn't know about me, and I happen to know that if Daphne knew this, she would find it interesting, and I think it's relevant to the conversation, and so I'm gonna pop this in here at the beginning, but then Daphne continued on, and she shifted the direction away from talking about this, but here's what we're gonna talk about, and I'm like, okay, I can drop that, let's go with where we're at now.
And so I was, you know, but I did notice, it's like, there was a part of me that was like, wait, wait, Daphne, let me take you back. But then when, and it's just ironic to me, and maybe I manifested this opportunity. You might have.
But Daphne then says, there's this thing that happens, sometimes somebody will say something, and you wanna get it in, but the interesting thing is though, for me, is that I've learned to just drop that. It's like, okay, that is not essential that it gets inserted into this conversation. Daphne's talking about something completely different now.
It doesn't make as much sense here. Let me be in the present moment. And then you start talking about being in the present moment, and then sometimes wanting to actually, you wanting to say something earlier, and it's like, ah, and see how this perfectly fit in.
[Speaker 2]
It's such a great, it fit in perfectly. It's an example. I got to tell my story.
That fit in perfectly, and especially in this example, and it always doesn't, right? Like that's sort of the point is, so you get in your head, and think about, I can recall instances where that happens in meetings, where a group of people are meeting, and then the conversation has moved on, but someone had something, that point they really needed to make that sounded really good, and they're more concerned about how they appear in the group, and the security, and control, and all those things that come up for us. And then they make a comment that really, really is irrelevant to what's going on.
[Cliff]
Yeah, or at least in the moment. It would have been relevant. It would have been relevant back then, but the opportunity didn't arise.
Yes. But you're still stuck back there. Yes.
And the key point, I think you were onto before, before I jumped in with my example, is that I used to be so stuck in, I'm looking for my opportunity. I'm looking for my opportunity. I wish that person would stop talking, so I would get my opportunity.
And I'm hearing myself while, meanwhile, the rest of the meeting, everybody's saying, mwah, mwah, mwah, mwah, mwah, mwah.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Cliff]
Because I have no idea what they're saying at this point.
[Speaker 2]
That's right.
[Cliff]
I'm just looking for my opportunity to show up and shine.
[Speaker 2]
Totally. And not present to what's happening. So that could happen quite a bit, as you can imagine, where the stakes feel a little higher when you're on a stage with four or five people.
And you know, there was learning the idea, and so I'm going through some of the concepts now. There was learning the idea also of giving and taking focus, what you just described. Being really adept at, okay, I've spoken now.
Let's say that you're gonna do a scene that's five minutes. Maybe you have five minutes. And there are five people on the stage.
At most, that's a minute a person, right, if you break it out that way. So being very cognizant of, hey, I delivered my, you know, they would, when my teacher described it, sometimes you're the meat, sometimes you're the potatoes, and sometimes you're the parsley, right, like if you have a meal. And so knowing and paying attention to where you fit in at that moment, and being aware of being able to give focus, right, to a person sitting with you, or being able to, and also being able to take focus.
So when is it right to do both? Not expecting people to wait for you to take focus, because that, A, may never come, and also it may not be helpful to the rest of the group to wait. So there's, yeah, a real art.
And I think this comes up in conversation all the time. Could you imagine if we were doing the podcast together and I just kept talking?
[Cliff]
No, I couldn't. That would drive me crazy, because I got to talk, Daphne.
[Speaker 2]
It would be pointless also, and it wouldn't be very entertaining.
[Cliff]
You know, and somebody was just interviewing me, and they asked me this question at the end of the interview, not we weren't still recording, but she goes, Cliff, you've been podcasting for so long, and you've done so many interviews. I got to ask you, how did I do? Is there any room for improvement?
And I'm like, hey, this was amazing. Thank you so much. I said, if there's only, there's only one question I have.
At any point during our conversation, was there any time when you felt like I went too long in answering a question, and you wanted to go in a different direction or move on to a different question? Because I have a tendency to speak and tell long stories and to go on and on, and I like to continue to communicate, and I did that. I would say I probably carried about 85 to 90% of our conversation.
And my only concern is this. I think everything was amazing, as long as you never once had the thought, wow, I wish I could insert myself and ask a different question and move in a different direction. My, if you ever had that thought, my recommendation is for you to just butt in, interrupt me, and say, hey, Cliff, that's great.
Let me ask you this question to be a little bit more assertive. I'm not saying you need to be more assertive. I'm happy to take the entire stage.
[Speaker 2]
You do hour-long podcasts by yourself, by the way.
[Cliff]
I do several hour-long podcast episodes every week by myself. And so, and that's what I say. It's like, listen, I'm okay with taking the stage, but I don't need it all either.
So, yeah, so anyway. I'm curious, what was her response? Oh, she said, no, it was great.
I was happy to let you run. And so I'm like, if that's true, it was amazing.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, and which, by the way, in that context, when someone is interviewing someone else, I can confidently tell you, I've heard the worst experience I've had listening to someone be interviewed is when the interviewer is taking more of the focus.
[Cliff]
Oh, yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Right, like that's the worst case for that context. So if someone's interviewing someone else, then you're really there not only to have meaningful questions asked, of course, but you're also there to hear the person being interviewed, right? So in that context, it could make a lot more sense for you to be able to talk longer or maybe what feels like longer than if you were in a conversation like we're having here as co-hosts, right?
So it could be different, yeah.
[Cliff]
Yeah, I've been a part of a number of interviews where I have been asked a question specifically so I could give my answer, but then so they could actually give what they actually wanted to say. I mean, and quite frankly, they could have edited me out and it would have been a great solo episode.
[Speaker 2]
That's not ideal. Not ideal, yeah. So given the context.
[Cliff]
I may have done it before, quite frankly. I may have.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, sure.
[Cliff]
And I'm not saying I have definitely, but chances are that if I know for a fact I've been a part of it, I know that it bugs me when it happens. And chances are the fact that it bugs me probably is a good indicator that I might evaluate. Is there any time in the past I've done this to people?
Right.
[Speaker 2]
Well, and again, your awareness, right? You've done this long enough too. You're aware of like, okay, I know my personality.
I know I can go on. So let me be mindful of that, which makes it less likely that you'll continue to do that and you'll ask for feedback. So again, that's the awareness part, right?
I have performed with one gal and she was aware that she could, she always wanted to be the funny, funny, right? The steak funny, funny. She's like, look, what am I?
And she was actually brilliantly hilarious. However, she had to learn just because she could come with one funny comment after the next. She had to learn to pull back sometimes too, because it would detract from what was going on, you know?
And she was very good at taking focus. So she had a certain personality type that could take focus very quickly and get her lines in there. But it wouldn't allow sometimes all the scenes to move forward in a way that they could more organically, more organic feeling.
[Cliff]
A great metaphor for this is something that I heard from Michael Hyatt. He talked about in the conversation, there are some people who just hog the ball, right? It's all about me and all this other stuff.
But somebody who's really great in conversation will pass the ball and it's like, hey, pass the ball to you. Pass the ball to me. Let's make sure that we all get a chance here to really play in this game.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Cliff]
And I will tell you that I heard him say that a number of times, and that was before I was more mindful of how I show up and what my personality is and my ego and how much of what I'm doing is so that I feel worthy and relevant and all this other things. And I recognize I used to show up and dominate conversations. And it is good to become aware of those things.
For me, it's changed the game. Otherwise, I couldn't come and have this podcast with you on a weekly basis.
[Speaker 2]
I agree. I was notorious for interrupting and got very, very accurate and harsh feedback about that. Probably when I look back, not probably, it is true.
When I look back at that, it saved my life in many, many ways because I was on a trajectory of doing exactly that. I was in leadership roles and there's nothing like when you're already the person who has a certain level of authority in the room, you're also the person that starts interrupting members of the team. Well, you can imagine how well that works for really getting input and really seeing, you know, in the spirit of seeing blind spots.
If I can't possibly see everything, I have tons of blind spots. And on a team, you'll especially have it. If you're making decisions, you're not going to see everything.
So if you start shutting down the team dynamic by interrupting, cutting people off, I would say the majority of the time when I noticed I was doing that, I was getting excited about things. It wasn't so much to dominate the conversation as much as I'd get excited about new ideas. However, still 25%, there was the anxiety that I would feel about change.
And my way of managing my anxiety was to get faster. My mind is very fast and use that and then to overpower the conversation to make sure that I could maintain control. Yeah.
So it was very helpful to get that feedback.
[Cliff]
Mine was having, for me, this is the way that I had found my ego had defended this practice of showing up and dominating conversations is that I had convinced myself I'm an introvert and I'm not good at having conversations with people. I don't know how to have small talk. And I'm convinced that everybody on this planet other than myself wants to talk about politics or football.
And I have no interest in having a conversation about either of those.
[Speaker 2]
Nor do I.
[Cliff]
But if I could get into a conversation where somebody is genuinely interested in something that I am an expert at that I have a lot of area of expertise in, then they're fascinated by my stories. And so therefore, I'm genuinely excited about my stories. I genuinely want to serve them by giving them entertainment.
I want to bring forth education. I want to encourage. I want to inspire.
I want to motivate. And I feel like I'm doing all of these things. But in reality, sometimes people are just being very generous to me.
Yeah, and they weren't as curious. And it did it. There were far too many conversations I've had where I've I've confused the queue of they're genuinely curious about what I have to offer them or they're incredibly generous.
And and it's like, wow, he does not pass the ball back if you give it to him.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, and it's exhausting for people, too, I think. You know, I've been on there, not with you, but on the receiving end of that with other people. And, you know, there is a point where I'm sort of just I notice.
Actually, it's not true. I think at this stage of my life, when that starts to happen, I'm very good at redirecting and, you know, interrupting. However, there was a stage of my life when I wasn't and I would just notice I would just be thinking about something else.
[Cliff]
Oh, yeah. Checking your email.
[Speaker 2]
Well, I just think, you know, let me balance my checkbook. What bird was that? You know, I think that was a summer titmouse that was tweeting.
You know, I'm just I'm off somewhere else. Yeah. And so passing the ball, giving focus, taking focus and knowing how to do both of those things as skillfully as you can, which only brings more engagement to the conversation for everybody, allowing all passing the ball to everyone getting, you know, again, this is just in service to our life, whether you're in leadership, whether you're in business.
It doesn't matter in your family, hearing from everyone is really, really helpful.
[Cliff]
And before you move on to that next point, I just want to say this and what stands out to me right here and how this all ties into this improv and how it ties into life is life genuine is genuinely not scripted. It's not. Dang it.
Nothing is scripted. It all is made up. It all just happens.
But I want the certainty. But we have in our heads often a script of how we think it's going to go. Yes, or that it should go.
Absolutely. And and when we are so. Bound to our script, what so I've actually been in a play before.
And so when you're in a play, all of a sudden you're on a stage and somebody misses a line. Yeah, you just move on. Yes, you it's like I've never been to a Broadway musical or an or a play anywhere.
It's like can we start to serve? He missed his line. Nobody ever does that.
No, but those things happen. And when I go to a I go to a lot of concerts and musicians oftentimes forget a line and they just continue on or they'll hum through a thing. It's like it's just like, listen, life is unscripted.
Not everything has to fit perfectly, exactly the way I thought it would be. And how can I be involved in this game as an equal player where we're all having fun together?
[Speaker 2]
You nailed it. I mean, this is the game of life. This is it, right?
That's it. And how how we all are how we can play together. There are two other points that I want to make about some of the things in improv that fit exactly in with this.
I'm going to go with the second one. I do. I'm going to skip the first and go to the second one because this is perfect.
What you talked about is how can we all play together? One of the other things that would happen in improv, you know, there are two or three of you, for example, that may step out onto the stage or two or three of you that may be doing a scene. And one of the things that was also really important was to know that your scene partners had your back.
And this is part of doing the game of life together, right? Like even before the show, we're like, man, neither one of us know how this is going to go. I don't know.
I might say something. You might pull one of these cards and I might be completely flummoxed and dumbfounded to have anything to say, right? What I know is that you will have my back in that moment.
You is highly likely that you will not sit there and just go like, well, you have to come up with something. I'm going to sit here silently, which is also the art of taking focus. So the other part of this is the connection, right?
We were taught in that in for the sake of the scene, for the sake of the audience, for the sake of ourselves, how to have each other's backs out there and how to understand when, you know, you could watch somebody when they were getting in their head and you would just not let your scene partner stand there and not have anything to do, right? Even if you had to walk, there were just all kinds of tricks. I mean, there were all kinds of using your environment, all kinds of things that we were taught.
There were sort of some of the tricks that you were taught first and then they just would come naturally to you. But how to just have each other's back, how to make sure that your scene partner, like you're my scene partner here on the show, right? How to make sure that like, are we driving the show forward?
He seems like he's getting a little stuck or it seems like, oh, this is going a different direction. How do I continue? I get to the second point here in a second, but how do I continue to support that?
[Cliff]
Wait, you're going to get to the first point, right?
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that became the second.
[Cliff]
Exactly.
[Speaker 2]
You're really keeping up, man.
[Cliff]
I love it. I'm just trying to make sure. You know, as you're talking about this, the whole scene partner is, I immediately had a flash of conversations in the car with my wife, you know, where all of it is, do I have her back in this conversation?
Yes. And it's like, wow, that's such a great way to think of a car, a conversation with my wife. It's like, do I have her back?
Because there had in the past been a tendency for me to, it's like, OK, there's something that I believe to be true. And my wife just said something that's slightly off from what I know to be my truth. Which never happens in relationships, ever.
Ever. And I'm like, wait a second, but hey, this, this, this. No, no, no.
And now it's like, oh, I don't have her back. Yeah. I don't have her back right here.
And so what I could do is I could, if I was, if I actually had her back, I'm like, hey, tell me more about that.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Cliff]
Because what you're saying there, I find that it's not registering, it's not resonating with me. How do you, can you share with me, how did you come to that conclusion? Or how did you come to see it from that way?
Because I'd love to hear more about that.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, from a genuine place of curiosity and from a genuine place of wanting to understand more versus, hey, I'm going to, I'm going to make you see your blind spot. I'm going to, you know, and I don't know if you've experienced this as a coach, but I'm going to coach you now without permission. I can see a blind spot over here and I'm going to point it out to you because I don't just, I don't agree.
Right. And I'm going to, I'm going to show you all the ways that you're not seeing this as accurately as you could. Right.
Which is all made up. I mean, in the first place, just because I see it a different way doesn't mean it's the right way to see it either. Nevertheless, yeah, I mean, you're getting to the point Cliff, which is that is, what is it like to have someone's back?
Right. Especially somebody important to you, like your wife, your spouse, the people that you love.
[Cliff]
My kids.
[Speaker 2]
Your kids. And to hear what's going on and be able to improvise with them in the moment. And maybe, you know, I've always, I have said this, you know, I want friends and people in my life who do give me feedback when I ask for it.
[Cliff]
When I ask for it.
[Speaker 2]
When I ask for it. I also want friends and people in my life that listen and do exactly what you just were talking about here. They can say, wow, tell me more about that.
Because the truth is oftentimes when we listen and I think, I don't know if you shared this with me or if I shared it with you or where I got it, you know, there was sort of the lamppost conversation.
[Cliff]
Oh yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So in coaching, you know, there's sort of this idea that most people could just go out and talk to a lamppost. If they were just listened to, they figure stuff out themselves.
[Cliff]
But it's not so much to be listened to there. But the lamppost, the idea that I love about this, and this could be beneficial just as a side note, even if this is completely, you know, off the tangent of everything. But have you ever had a situation where you've got everything is up in your head and it feels like a pressure cooker.
And in your situation, sometimes somebody will say, hey, what's going on? And they'll just listen to you. And that feels amazing.
They may not say anything. And so the lamppost theory is this idea is that most people, if they would just go for a walk and at the end of the street, they would just sit there and just tell all of the things, speak out loud, all of the thoughts that are actually running around inside of their head until they're all out of the head and they've been spoken. And just that process alone can be therapeutic and healing.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Cliff]
Even if the lamp didn't hear any of it. It's just to allow without the, but you're wrong. You're seeing it wrong.
Let me tell you why you're wrong. It's just, let me just say it. And oftentimes somebody just saying something it's like, wow, as a coach, I recognize when it's like, okay, I realized I just said that out loud.
And I'm like, whoa. And this is like their self-coaching. It's like, this is amazing.
I love what I do.
[Speaker 2]
I do too. Yeah. So I think that's very relevant because I think I can imagine you driving in the car with your wife and just you being the lamppost in a sense that you're listening.
Now, what is nice that goes a step further than you being a lamppost is you can also demonstrate some genuine curiosity, right? And ask questions. So that takes it to another level.
So, you know, at minimum people, we're just advising at least be a lamppost.
[Cliff]
Yeah. That's the great thing about if you're a coach, if you could just be a lamppost, you'd already be valuable. And the fact that you have the ability to be curious makes you a little bit more valuable than a lamppost.
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
So having each other's backs, right?
[Cliff]
By the way, just, I want to put this, if you don't mind, I'm going to give Daphne a little work here. I'm going to ask to put a link to a YouTube video in the show notes. And it's titled, It's Not About The Nail.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, I know that so well.
[Cliff]
Have you seen the video?
[Speaker 2]
Yes, several, several. As a matter of fact, I think I actually included it in presentations that I had given many years ago. Yes, I will include it.
It's Not About The Nail. I know exactly what it is.
[Cliff]
It's Not About The Nail.
[Speaker 3]
And I'm like, it's so about the nail. Come on. And we all do it.
I just want to tell you about the nail.
[Cliff]
Please let me tell you about the nail.
[Speaker 2]
Well, I do.
[Cliff]
If I told you about the nail, it might help.
[Speaker 2]
There's an exercise that I do with groups when I do organizational work with teams where they're in groups of three and one person, each person gets a turn. They talk for about a minute to a minute and a half to just complain. And the other two people have to listen.
Now, and the other two people are not allowed to say any words. They can, they can nod. They can do those things, but they're not allowed to say any words.
They're not, they literally have to listen to the person for a minute and a half, complain about whatever topic is they choose to bring to the table. What inevitably happens, this is a question I ask, is how many people, when you were the listener, how many of you wanted to give advice? Every single hand will go up.
And this is just a little trick to understand about how we are as humans. And it's a good thing. This isn't a bad thing.
But what I've discovered working with thousands and thousands of teams and people is that we are, we get so uncomfortable with other people's discomfort.
[Speaker 3]
Yes.
[Speaker 2]
I mean, I find that true. And I found it true as I've worked with people and worked with teams, that we are so uncomfortable with other people's discomfort that we, out of our own desire to alleviate our own discomfort, want to advise people how to solve their problems.
[Cliff]
I was just watching or reading a Byron Katie exchange with a mother during the pandemic who said that her daughter and her son and daughter-in-law were being very reckless because they were going to go on a trip during the pandemic.
[Speaker 2]
Okay.
[Cliff]
And he has respiratory issues.
[Speaker 2]
Okay.
[Cliff]
Or has had a history of respiratory issues. And that's being so dangerous. And she is like, they shouldn't go on this trip.
This is reckless. This is wrong. They should understand that I know I'm very informed on what's going on here and they should see this and they should have talked to me and blah, blah, blah.
And what happened is through the process, she realized, oh, wow, this is all about me and my happiness and my peace.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Cliff]
This isn't, I'm not concerned about my son. It's masked as concerned about my son, but I'm really concerned about my own peace.
[Speaker 2]
Yes. And my own discomfort. Yeah.
[Cliff]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
And it doesn't mean, again, I think it doesn't mean that you can't be concerned. It doesn't mean that, again, we talked about this last week that you have preferences that may absolutely, I'd prefer that you didn't travel. You know, I do have concerns and I understand that, you know, you're going to make your own decision.
You're an adult. You're going to do what you're going to do. Yeah.
So where was I? Yes. So having each other's backs, I want to get to point number one, which became point number two and discomfort.
So we've kind of went off on a trail there. Point number one really was the concept of yes anding.
[Cliff]
I really appreciate you showing up in this way. I witnessed this in you a great deal. I hear you say yes and a lot.
[Speaker 2]
It's my number one thing. If I had a number one thing.
[Cliff]
I've also witnessed a handful of other people in my life who show up that way. They don't do the yes and, but I recognize that instead of but, they say the word and. They've actually very much.
It's very clear that it's a conditioned thing because I always notice it because I'm very aware of what's going on.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Cliff]
And I see somebody mentally cut the butt off and replace it with an audible and.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, really?
[Cliff]
Yeah, it's so fun. I can actually see it happening. It's like if you could see you, because their face, there's something that people do.
It's like, oh, no, not that word, this word instead. And I can see it getting caught in real time. So tell us about the yes and.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, well, it allows. I will talk about it. Let's talk about the word but.
[Cliff]
Okay.
[Speaker 2]
Okay. So you and I are in conversation and I say, maybe you throw out an idea. I'm trying to think of an exact example.
Well, let's say that you give a suggestion with the show today, right? You're like, well, what if we tried this? And I said, yeah, but blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I go on with my sentence. What's happening is, is first of all, the word yes sort of gives this idea that I'm in agreement, but the but immediately makes it clear that I'm not. And what follows the but is actually what I really, what I really want to happen.
So I negate but is a way that we can negate the first part of a sentence in the first part of the idea and then give credence to the second part. And what it makes, what it makes us do mentally is we don't, and I'll give a real good example from one of my teachers back in the day. We don't have to own both things.
For example, I could say to you, Cliff, I love you, but your feet stink.
[Cliff]
Okay.
[Speaker 2]
Right? So what I don't have to, what I don't have to admit to myself is that I love a person whose feet stink by putting the but in there versus this. I love you and your feet stink.
I have to own both parts of the, of the reality, right? I love you, but, right? Not really because your feet stink.
So the but just as a way of us negating the truth of what's really happening and the truth of what we really want instead of just saying, look, I hear your suggestion and I don't like it. I don't want to do what you're suggesting. When I say, yeah, but, it makes it a little bit more, it makes it a little bit easier for me to get what I want really into the situation.
Does that make sense?
[Cliff]
Yes. Yeah. And.
[Speaker 2]
Yes, but not really.
[Cliff]
Actually, here's what I'm thinking is that this is the first time I've actually heard this explained. You've talked about improv and you learned the yes and I've witnessed, you and I have been working together for the last decade. So in the, in the last decade, I've heard you do the yes and consistently for a decade.
And I've heard you talk about several times, maybe at least four or five times that you picked up the yes and, and it's a valuable tool in communication and in leadership. I've, this is the first time I'm ever hearing the reasoning explained.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, interesting.
[Cliff]
So this is the first time for me to be exposed with, yeah, but have you thought about this? Yes. And I think what I need to do is actually sit with more of the explanation of what you're saying.
Because there, for me, I have been on the, on the coaching side. There's a lot of times where I'm, I'm evaluating. It's like, okay, yeah, I see where you're coming from.
And I may not use the word, but very often, but I use something I think is probably an equivalent, which is however. Similar. Yeah.
So I would say yes. Okay. I see what you're saying there.
However, have you considered this?
[Speaker 2]
Is that different than a yeah, but? I think in the coaching context, it probably is slightly different. I'll give another example that's a little bit more overt about the yeah, but, or even a no, but, which is even crazier to me.
Yeah, I think in a coaching context, I think when, I think if the sincerity is there on, yes, I hear that you see the situation this way. Okay, because that is, that's all.
[Cliff]
Yeah, that's what I heard you say. That would definitely be the case for me.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that's what I heard you saying. I see that you see, I hear that you see the situation this way. And have you considered this, right?
You know, in other words, can you hold that you can see the situation one way? And could it be true, kind of by the way to Byron Katie. And can you see that it could also be this could be a possibility.
Right. And one of the things that I'm really- It doesn't feel as much like yeah, but to me.
[Cliff]
As much as- One of the things that I'm really appreciating from Byron Katie's work is the fact that it's like, yes, I see that that is true.
[Speaker 2]
For that person.
[Cliff]
From your vantage point. I acknowledge that as your truth. I can't argue with your reality.
And this is something I'm really loving about the work is the fact that when I ask, is it true? And they say yes. And for me, it's an obvious no.
I can understand that it is actually still a yes for them. And that is true. Yes.
[Speaker 2]
And let's also keep it top of mind that in that work, in that context, the person is suffering.
[Cliff]
Yes.
[Speaker 2]
They're aware that they're suffering. So, you know, I think this is always sort of the asterisk by a lot of this is that if you have a belief or an idea and it causes you no suffering and it's causing you no discomfort or anyone around you, great. But in that context, this is a situation where people are having and holding a perspective and holding a belief that is causing them some level of suffering, which is why they're sitting with Byron Katie.
And I imagine with your clients, why they're coming to you also.
[Cliff]
Exactly.
[Speaker 2]
Right.
[Cliff]
So we're talking mainly in a conversation. The yeah, but this is more along. You just said something I completely disagree with it.
I'm not even seeing. I'm not even accepting what you're saying is true.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Cliff]
And my but or and I don't think that I can't imagine I'd have to go back and replay some things, but I don't know that I have ever really have had a habit of saying, yeah, but I've never. Honestly, I don't experience you that way either. I mean, it's like, but because I do.
I have had a number of conversations where somebody clearly believe something so absolutely different to me. And I'm like, but this, you know? Yeah.
And it's like, there's there's no agreement. There's no. Yes.
It's like, but this and but and here's what I will say is the biggest book that has been the greatest source of freedom on this is the book, The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Cliff]
And if you were to read this book, which you could do in an hour, I'm sorry, in two and a half hours, it's that short. Yeah. And the opener of the book, I think before he gets to the first agreement, is called The Dream of the Planet, which is nothing more is this is the belief system of the planet.
There's the belief system of the country. There's the belief system of the city. There's the belief system of your little village.
There's the belief system of your community. There's the belief system of your family. And then there's but but replace the word belief system with dream.
Oh, that's so it's the dream of the planet. It's your personal dream, your family's dream, the ancestral lineage of your dream that's been handed down to you. It's called but if you have not done this, I encourage everyone go get this book.
It's called The Four Agreements. Don Miguel Ruiz. I'll put it in the links.
Thank you. And just read dream the dream of the planet. If you read nothing else.
And what I love about that is it helped me understand it's like, wait a second. If I'm unwilling to hear what this person is saying is true, and I'm in disagreement with it. What I'm saying is my dream is more real than their dream.
And I'm like, that can't be true. We're both dreaming. So tell me about your dream.
I'll tell you about my dream.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yes.
[Cliff]
And it's so in this, this is some while I didn't have this. Yes. And language.
I have adopted the end result of it. Mostly.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Cliff]
You and I were I was explaining. I think it was you and I were having this conversation. I told you about a weird book that I'm reading.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Cliff]
And I read you a couple of quotes out of context. And you're like, I don't know where that where that stands with scientific proof. And it's like, you know, it's answered elsewhere in the book.
I'm, I'm being unfair to the author by reading just a couple of experts outside of context. But one of the things that I have really discovered is this idea of reading a new book without the idea of agreement versus disagreement. So it's like, hey, I'm going to come into this with my dream of the planet.
[Speaker 3]
Mm hmm.
[Cliff]
And I'm going to read to this and see where it aligns with what I believe and where it doesn't align with what I believe. And that's how I used to read. And that's how I used to jump into a conversation.
But now what I really love is like, hey, what have you dreamed up? Yeah. Yeah.
And how does that align with what I've dreamed up? Yes. And, and which of these produces a more desirable outcome in life?
[Speaker 2]
Well, and for you, right? For your life, whatever that is. And for other people's lives.
So, yes, so we've gone beyond just the part of the conversation around the beliefs that are suffering. But now what you're talking about is just simply being in agreement. Like how, like recognizing that your dream and somebody else's is there is no more validity to one versus the other.
Yeah. Which is, which is probably the capital. Yes.
[Cliff]
And that's exactly what I'm getting. It's like, that's the biggest. Yes.
And the biggest.
[Speaker 2]
Yes. And yes. So, so these are some concepts, you know, the one example I was going to give of a, of a huge, yeah, but as if I walked out on the stage and I'm like, you know, cause remember in improv, there's no props or anything, right?
Everything's it's improv, right? So I walk out on the stage and I'm like, oh, do you love my red hat? I just bought it.
And you look at me and go, you're not wearing a red hat.
[Cliff]
Ooh. Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, ouch, ouch.
[Cliff]
You don't, you do not have your partners back there.
[Speaker 2]
You do not have your partners back and the scene can go nowhere, right? I mean, you are going to go nowhere, right? So it's sort of that, so, and that's what happens with yeah, but essentially is you're not really listening to anything the other person's saying.
So now we're just going to get, now we're going to be in an argument and we're going to have some sort of weird disagreement about what I, if what I said has validity or not, we're not even moving the scene forward. We're not moving the meeting forward. We're not making decisions that are moving forward.
We're not moving the business forward. We're just now going to get an entanglement and have a big kerfuffle about what I said that wasn't true or not.
[Cliff]
Right.
[Speaker 2]
So it does not help. So building on each other's ideas creates a collaboration. It's the only way that collaboration can really happen.
[Cliff]
I can sense, Daphne, something came up for me as I'm thinking about this. And sometimes I'm listening to you and I as a, as your partner in this conversation. And sometimes I'm listening to this and I just dropped into third party, meaning that I'm just, I started listening to what you were saying just now as a listener.
[Speaker 2]
Oh.
[Cliff]
And as a listener, I felt a little bit of resistance for just a moment. And that is, wait a second. Are you saying that we should, because sometimes we have an opinion, I have an opinion that the person is delusional and what they're spouting or stating, you clearly don't have a red hat and you want me to play into your delusion that you have a red hat.
Now I get that we're outside of improv. Sure. But sometimes what I just recognize is there's some is like, okay, but how does this play out into my corporate situation at work where so-and-so says this, but I clearly know that that's not true.
Oh. Am I supposed to, and yes, and them, even though what I know is that they said is absolutely false. And I have evidence to support it.
Do I still yes and them? How do you handle a scenario like that? It just occurred to me that somebody out there might be having that thought.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Well, and it happens. I mean, what you're bringing up is a real, very real thing.
Let me give you an example. You know, I was sitting in a meeting one time and it was very clear the person who was presenting wasn't giving all the facts and they were wanting, as happens quite often, by the way, they were wanting to present in my experience, things better than they really were because they were speaking to a group of people who was about to give them a lot of money.
[Cliff]
It's like a boardroom. I'm aware of those situations.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, exactly. So, you know, how do I maintain my integrity in that situation at the same time, understand what the motivations are, understanding what's happening. It wasn't that the person, everything the person was saying was untrue.
It just was, it was very much coached in a light that wasn't really giving the full picture. Right.
[Cliff]
My question, Daphne, if you don't mind, what happens in one where you have a very strong conviction that what was just said is a lie? I mean, it is absolute untruth.
[Speaker 2]
Well, at that point, that is when you really want to own and say, look, I would like to present a different perspective.
[Cliff]
Okay. So, see, and to me, that's a variation of a yeah, but.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, well, it is. I mean, if you really truly felt that someone was being, was obfuscating in a way, and that's what was happening in this meeting, I didn't see, didn't see that everything that this person was saying wasn't true, but there were two or three points that I was like, that isn't exactly accurate. Right.
So how do I yes, and the reality that I understood what the motivation was, I understood that this person wanted to get the funding that they needed. I also understood that they probably in the quest of feeling fearful about getting that funding, they felt like they had to make things sound better than they were. Right.
So having some compassion for that. At the same time, I did want these people who are going to give the funding to also understand what they were funding. Right.
Right. So, so all I said in that moment was, you know, of course, they say, are there any questions or anything anyone else would like to say? And I'm like, I have a few things that I'd like to contribute that may not sound as rosy as what was presented.
And I would tell you before I even say the things I'm going to say that I would fund this with no hesitancy. I like that. Because that was true for me.
I would. Right. Like, I just want you to have the full picture and I would still give money to this thing.
Right.
[Cliff]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Which was true. So it isn't, I think it's a great point, Cliff. It doesn't mean that you get into blind agreement.
[Cliff]
And I think that's where I was going. Because for me, as I dropped into third party and as a listener, I'm like, not everything in life is, is this can be solved by this. Yes.
[Speaker 2]
And the situation, it seems like, so imagine if I would have in that instance, only latched onto the two or three things that weren't.
[Cliff]
Yep. Accurate. Because that's what I loved what you did.
Cause you gave me a perfect example in that situation. It's like, I would like, I would like to present some additional information that's not as rosy or that doesn't have the rose colored filtered glasses on, but at the same time, you're honoring what is the desired outcome here? Yeah.
And this, and, and you were genuine, authentic, and honest about the fact that if I were in your scenarios, given what I'm about ready, additional insight I'm about ready to bring to you, I would still fund this and think it's in your best interest to fund this. Yeah. And I think it's valuable in the light that you're about ready to fund this because I would pre-frame it that way.
Cause you're very good in light of the fact that you're about ready to fund this. I think you should know this and this as you come into this system.
[Speaker 2]
Yes. Yeah. So thank you for calling that out because that is not the impression I want to give that.
It just means you're in blind agreement.
[Cliff]
I don't think you, I don't think you were giving the impression. It's just something that I felt very much that some people, cause if I was listening to this conversation, which I am listening to this conversation, I'm like, huh? Cause you know, I work with a lot of people in a lot of situations and I was like, huh, where, how, how would, how would Daphne, what Daphne is saying here apply to this?
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. And that's a true story, by the way, that is an absolute true story. And, you know, I think the, the part that's so important that you are bringing up is, you know, go back to just the, our, you know, us being in this world of consciousness, you know, there is a little bit of truth in all of that, right?
There was a little bit of truth in that presentation. It wasn't completely, this person wasn't standing up saying nothing that didn't have any truth behind it. And I think the important part is to go, well, let's say that someone, let's say for the sake of example, someone's saying something and none of it is true.
[Cliff]
And that's, that is actually my question. What do you do in a scenario where it is, there's scientific proof and evidence to support the fact that this person just lied?
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. They just lied. I can see that they want to sell the narrative in that way.
And I disagree with all of it. You know, it's honoring both things. Like I see that that is what wants to be said because it was, that was reality.
It was said, or it was done, or it was, you know, I mean, the world of disinformation we've lived through. Right.
[Cliff]
So, yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Right. You know, I can see that those are the things that want to, that are, that are occurring. It's true.
They are occurring. I don't assume.
[Cliff]
So as your improv partner, I can see Daphne, that you want to believe that the hat is still on your head, but I'm sorry. Let me pick it up for you. You dropped it on the ground.
[Speaker 2]
You might not be wearing what you think you're wearing. Yeah, exactly. And then you get to choose, but yeah, that absolutely true.
It does not mean that there's just blind agreement about everything, right? In the spirit of collaborating and relationships and getting in doing this thing of life, it's very, it's more helpful than not. It's more helpful than not.
Yeah. It's more helpful than not for sure.
[Cliff]
I love that.
[Speaker 2]
We should do some, it's some card pulling.
[Cliff]
Let's pull a card. You know what? I'm going to pull a card from not my own deck, but a deck of cards that I bought.
It's called the, it's the Ikigai cards.
[Speaker 2]
Okay. All right.
[Cliff]
And I'm just going to randomly pull a card here. So let's see here.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, wait, before you do that, can I get a suggestion of something you'd find in your kitchen?
[Cliff]
Oh, sure. Something you'd, a can opener.
[Speaker 2]
Can opener. All right. The suggestion is can opener.
All right.
[Cliff]
All right. Okay. All right.
So.
[Speaker 2]
It sounded like I was on that game show.
[Cliff]
Yes. The password is can opener. How many people are too young to even know that?
[Speaker 2]
I don't know. We're going to find out. I hope people, I hope people know.
[Cliff]
We just outed how old we are.
[Speaker 2]
We did.
[Cliff]
All right. Where did all the change come from? That's the question on the card.
Okay. And on the other side of this particular card, it says think. Think about the moment that you realize when you've grown up, write down your life's turning points that have changed you or your path and what you have learned from this experience.
So in conversation, think about one moment. One moment. One, one turning point in your life where there was massive growth.
Go.
[Speaker 2]
I, you know, there's a story I've told this story before. I'm going to tell it. Well, I'm going to tell it again because it's relevant.
It's in my book, Waking Up a Leader. You can read about it, but it comes back. I'm sure it's top of mind because it comes back to something that we were, I was talking about earlier in the show, but I got feedback from my boss.
And I'm paraphrasing it. It was sent in an email that he could no longer tolerate my constant commenting in meetings. Again, please do.
This is not direct quotes. I'm just paraphrasing. Constant commenting in meetings.
And that he, essentially, that was the essence of it. Like I'm like interrupting, taking over the conversation, always disagreeing with everything that was said. That was his impression.
Of course, the feedback, the way that it was delivered was very challenging. So it was in an email. And so I probably read it much more harshly than it probably was being presented is my guess.
And it changed the trajectory of my life. I sought out the, I talked to him about it, obviously, after I calmed myself down. It took about a week.
I was done crying and feeling bad about myself and taking it very personally. And I was probably 32 at the time, maybe 31, 32 years old. And it really started a, it was, it fit into with part of my journey of my own self-awareness.
And so I scheduled a time to go talk to him. I, you know, got more context. Of course, it wasn't as, it wasn't as harsh as I had read it.
But it was, it was, there was truth to it for him, for sure. And then went and talked to my buddies, my colleagues that I worked with, and got more feedback and learned in that moment about what it, how I was showing up in meetings, how I was showing up in my life. I learned a lot through the years.
Some of what I commented on earlier around my, how my fear manifested itself as wanting control. And how I would manipulate situations so that I could try to maintain control. Really, and really quite honestly, Cliff, just understanding how much fear I had, which I was not in touch with the emotion of fear at all at that point in my life.
Fear, to me, felt like death. Said another way, vulnerability felt like death.
[Cliff]
Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
So, you know, I did everything to sort of, I did everything I could in that time to avoid that experience. Which lives in the world of uncertainty, unpredictability. I mean, I just, there was just no tolerance for that in this DNA at the time.
For millions of reasons, I imagine. So yeah, I mean, that changed the trajectory of my life. And then it just so happened that I met two coaches who were, this almost happened, sort of amazing how giving the universe really is.
You know, they say, when you're ready, the teacher will appear. And so met two coaches in my life who then were right on the heels of that experience. And it changed everything.
It changed, absolutely changed the trajectory of my life. So I can go back further and find people and points, but that one was a big one. Yeah.
[Cliff]
I love that.
[Speaker 2]
Thank you.
[Cliff]
Now, should I answer as well?
[Speaker 2]
Yes, you should answer. Yes.
[Cliff]
So again, there are many points in my life. But I'm going to share one that really kicked things off for me in a pretty profound way. I had a vision probably going all the way back to 2015.
In my mind, I woke up one day and all of a sudden I'm like, I see myself in a stadium with tens of thousands of people who came to a live event where I'm speaking on stage. And not just a stadium event where I'm speaking on stage, but I'm the one who put that event together. And I have no idea where this came from.
It just was a vision of mine. And I never really spoke about it for a while. And then somebody, I was actually in New Zealand doing a keynote address over there.
And I was invited to sit at dinner with a family who invited me over. And in their living room, they said, so Cliff, what's next for you? And it was the first time I've ever spoken to anybody.
And I want you to imagine there's about eight people in this living room, okay? And I sit there, I said, well, part of me wonders if I'm about ready to start really taking my public speaking to the next level. By the way, a little backstory.
Two years before this, I had a dream of becoming a paid keynote speaker. And now here I am in New Zealand on an all expenses international paid keynote address, right? And so I'm thinking, okay, I think my next level, where I might be going next is hosting large events.
And in fact, I said, I've had this dream for the last two years of hosting a big stadium event where tens of thousands of people and every single person in the room says they were nodding like, I so see that. In fact, I definitely will be there at your stadium event. And I walk out of that place, Daphne, and I'm like, oh, this is amazing.
If I want 49,000 or 50,000 people there, I just need to go and tell this story to 49,992 people. And just because basically, I continue to tell a lot of people about this. So then I kept talking to my friend, Ray, about this.
And I said, I'm thinking about doing this. You keep talking about 5, 10 years down, 5, 10. Why not next year?
So then I started doing small workshops in my home to see if people would be willing to pay to travel to my home to do these small workshops. I successfully sold those. And then I went and did what I thought would be a 300-person event, hired an event team, invested $60,000 to host the first annual Free the Dream conference, which you spoke at.
It was an amazing experience. People from all over the world came, but I had 87 people instead of 300. So that ended up costing me a bit of money.
Um, not the event itself, but the lost opportunity cost of marketing other services. So I'm like, okay, I learned from that. Let's try it again.
300 is the goal for Free the Dream 2019. Well, we hit 117 people the second year. Yeah, still didn't lose $38,000 that year.
I only lost 19,000, which I'm improving. I'm moving in the right direction. And then I'm invited to go to dinner with a friend of mine.
And at that dinner, he says, Cliff, let me ask you a question. Why are you doing Free the Dream? What's the end result here?
And I said, I told him about the vision of the future. And he says, interesting. He goes, okay.
So what, what, why would you, if you, if you successfully reached the stadium event, what would that mean to you? What would I say? I believe I would have the most impact and influence in the world.
And that's what I'm really going after. I said, don't get me wrong. I know, I know also that something else has gotten caught up into this.
It happened between Free the Dream 2018 and Free the Dream 2019. And I'm recognizing that my heart initially wanted to have impact and influence. Number two, I like the idea of the financial success inside of it, the profitability on it.
And then number three, but it was in third place originally. And it was my own significance. I would feel significant.
I would feel important. People would really look up to me in a powerful way. And I like that.
And I was very open with this person. I said, and I recognize somewhere over the last several months, significance has become number one.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, that's so good. And not only that significance had become number one, but that you had created a story that that was how to get it.
[Cliff]
Yes.
[Speaker 2]
Right? You'd somehow manipulated like that. Yeah.
Yeah.
[Cliff]
So this friend of mine, he says, Cliff, let me ask you this. Who would you say is the most influential person who ever lived? I said, probably the guy who they divide the calendar by, before his birth and after his birth.
So probably Jesus. He says, interesting. He says, well, you happen to know a bit about him and what's been written about him.
How often did he speak to crowds of thousands and thousands and thousands? I'm like, well, there's two or three occasions. Yeah.
It's not that he never did. Where did he invest the majority of his time? I said, in a much smaller gatherings.
And even then, who did he spend the most time investing in? And I said, 12. I mean, because even then, didn't he have three?
And even then, didn't he have one? And it's like, wow. Let me just ask you another question.
How much impact and influence did you have with Free the Dream 2018? And I said, it was significant. He goes, yep.
It was in my backyard. Absolutely. I know for a fact it impacted people.
How much time and energy did you get to spend and invest? I had about 15 to 20 minutes with every person there. And if this thing gets to 300, how much time will you have with each person?
He goes, and how profitable was it? And I said, oh, it wasn't profitable at all.
[Speaker 2]
You're like, I don't want to talk about it.
[Cliff]
He says, tell me about your workshops in your home. And I said, oh, well, those were amazing. He goes, how much influence and impact did you have in the lives of those people for a day and a half compared to these people here for two and a half days?
Yeah. It was much more impactful. They ate at my dinner table.
They were in my home. They met my wife. They met my kids.
And we broke bread together. I got tons of personal questions. And it's like, and how profitable?
I said, oh, my gosh, I made $25,000 or $24,000 to $35,000 every event. He goes, wow, that's interesting. He goes, tell me about your next level mastermind.
You meet with them every week? I'm like, yeah. He goes, how much impact and influence?
It's like, oh, it's exponentially higher there. Really? And how profitable?
It's like, well, I've got people who've been in the group that have paid $70,000 over the last couple of years. It's like, wow. He says, so it sounds to me like if you were really going for impact and influence and profitability, what does that mean for you moving forward?
And this was before the pandemic, Daphne. I had already decided. This conversation happened two weeks before Free the Dream 2019.
When I went into Free the Dream 2019, all weekend long, I asked myself, could I shut this down? And the answer was, by the end of it, is yes. There will not be a Free the Dream 2020.
[Speaker 2]
And ironically, there wouldn't have been.
[Cliff]
Exactly. And that's yet another example of how the universe completely provides for us.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it totally conspires. Yes.
[Cliff]
But I knew way before the pandemic, there wasn't going to be a Free the Dream 2020.
[Speaker 2]
And that was an influential conversation that changed the trajectory of what you were doing.
[Cliff]
And it also was the beginning of my shift from my, if you think about the Tony Robbins six human needs, I went from certainty and significance being my driving force in life to growth and contribution being my driving force in life.
[Speaker 2]
Wow. And think about how significant the guy that was that invented the can opener.
[Cliff]
Yeah. But if you think about it, in my case, that dinner conversation opened the can for all sorts of new avenues of my investment in life.
[Speaker 2]
It really did. It really did. Look at that.
That just bringing it back full circle. All right. Let's do another question.
All right. Thanks for sharing. That's a great story.
[Cliff]
Another question.
[Speaker 2]
Okay.
[Cliff]
So what are your positive obsessions? And I'm going to read this.
[Speaker 2]
Who wants to talk about those? Now anyone listening is like, I want to hear about her negative ones.
[Cliff]
Think about the last time you were so excited about an idea or positively obsessed with finding a solution to a challenge that you couldn't sleep.
[Speaker 2]
Oh my gosh. I mean, where do I start? The first thing that came to my mind was our show, the podcast.
I was so excited about that. The idea had been percolating for really, truly years. How would I do a show around this idea of the game of life?
And what would the topics really look like? And so on and so forth. And then last year, as we talked about doing the show, just getting more and more excited.
And I get excited about it every time. I mean, I can't wait. I'm like, I don't know what we're going to talk about next week.
We managed to say something or do something that I'm sure my attention is tuned to looking for that. I'm like, that's the show next week. Literally, as you were talking today, I'm like, we really need to do a show about the four agreements.
You've brought it up multiple times. I know. I wrote it down.
I got it captured. We're good. I got it.
And so I get really excited about that. I don't know about solving problems. I don't put myself in the bucket of problem solver too much.
I don't approach things that way. I know I do solve problems, but I don't really approach it that way as much as I sort of think through things of like, how do I add to this? How do I make this thing that exists even more beautiful or more dynamic or more whatever?
I'm probably on the side of the adding and the more side of things than problem solving. So I get very excited about the podcast. The other thing that I'm really excited about that you and I talked about this last week that has just been obsessing me all weekend.
I've been writing, as you know, a lot. And so I've really been, and there are many things that I'm writing that I want to put in a context that it's going to be for people who really are wanting that community of sort of what's the mindful thing. And for people who are in the working world, nine to five, for sure.
That's who I talk to the most and who my audience is at the same time that they want this mindfulness and they want this way of thriving in that environment. So I'm very obsessed right now with the idea of putting this into the essays that I'm writing, putting them into a format that can be consumed through audio, because I also like talking, and then being able to give the backstory of that. So I pitched some things to you to sort of get your opinion, I know this weekend, but I'm just obsessed with it at this point.
[Cliff]
That is awesome.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So, and again, adding to the livelihood of people's lives. And I think that can open a lot of doorways and open a lot of opportunities.
So yeah, for people, not me. I'm good.
[Cliff]
I love it.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, you have to answer.
[Cliff]
My positive obsession. One of my most recent positive obsessions has been AI, so artificial intelligence. Yes.
I use a program called Notion, which you can find at notion.so, I believe. I have a paid version there. And if you pay an extra $10 a month, you have access to their full AI suite.
And it's in beta right now. It's called Ask AI. Oh.
And Ask AI is where every single piece of text that is in your Notion database. Get out of here. It trains an AI model just on your data and it stays private.
It's all yours. It doesn't go out to train anybody else's model. Nobody else gets to search this.
Now, the interesting thing is that since December 2005, this is my 52nd podcast that I've ever produced, and I have over 4,700 podcast episodes.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that's a lot.
[Cliff]
And one of the things that I decided to do was to create a database that would have the transcript of every single podcast I've ever produced. And so, I began. And so far, I have like 3,000 transcripts inside of Notion.
And I can go in and ask AI any question, and it knows every word I spoke in all of those episodes. Wow. And it instantly is able to tell me things.
So, for example, I was like, hey, what was the actual opportunity cost? And what was the profit and loss on Free the Dream 2018? Now, I spoke about that in an episode on my Train with Cliff Audio Journal podcast.
And I asked that question, and it gave me the exact answers and told me which transcripts it pulled it from.
[Speaker 2]
So, that is currently what you're cranking up on the AI side of things with Notion.
[Cliff]
It is currently on hold because I have other obsessions that compete against other positive obsessions. And so, I have to allow myself the freedom to task switch in between.
[Speaker 2]
Yes. If you're learning anything about Cliff and I, we are at no loss, no lack of positive obsessions.
[Cliff]
Yes.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. I like that it asks about positive ones. I am curious.
What is my negative obsession?
[Cliff]
My negative obsession, I can tell you right now, my negative obsession is being too overly concerned about the financial health of my ongoing business, income, revenue, something or other, and how I happen to have a family that seems to have no concern for that whatsoever, but have all sorts of great ideas of where expenses could go.
[Speaker 2]
I mean, someone has to take the other seat then. We can't all be wild dreamers. It's one against five, though.
[Cliff]
Six, if you include my dog. That's right.
[Speaker 2]
And he or she won't go get a job.
[Cliff]
It's fun. And I recognize that when it actually can create suffering for me. Yeah, sure.
Or stress. Yes. And I'm always able to get myself out of that so that I can go in creatively.
And they say that money doesn't grow on trees. But my experience is that I can creatively think of something and go do something about the desired income that I need.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, which is great. I was trying to think, what's my current negative obsession? I would say that mine probably falls, you know, I'm learning music, playing music now.
I'm not formally trained in music. So I've been on a very big learning curve. But I found myself falling into the trap of being the what I call the good student persona.
A lot like I'm studying at Berklee, the School of Music. So it's, you know, it's fantastic. I mean, these are world renowned musicians and people that I'm learning from.
However, I found myself just falling into the trap of having to get every lesson perfect, which, by the way, is impossible for me at this point. And just getting really obsessed with that. Like it was starting to take over my life.
I noticed like I would just was practicing really long hours and, you know, I could just feel that part of my persona taking over. And the perfection. Most people would probably not look at me and or interact with me and think that I have a perfectionism tendency.
But I absolutely do. And she's always lurking back there. She's like, you didn't get that one note just right.
You're not going to turn that in, are you? So I had to really I had to calibrate. Yeah, yeah.
Calibrating. It's not all going to get done overnight. I also can have a unhealthy obsession.
These fit together too. They talk to each they work together with impatience. I can get impatient.
So that my my perfectionist one and my impatience one can work together and they can create epic chaos over there.
[Cliff]
Yeah. And, you know, as you speak about that, my negative obsession of sometimes getting a little bit of a stress response or reaction to financial stimuli, it can also oftentimes lead to a catalyst of a major shift in what I think is possible. It's like, listen, hey, if I were to need to come up with the funds to cover that expense, I can't do that on the current trajectory that I'm on.
So it may cause me to get creative about finding a solution. And then all of a sudden, it's like, wow, there's a bigger we came up with this metaphor and a conversation with somebody else, a bigger shovel, if you will. And it's like, wow.
And the great news is, is that once you have the bigger shovel and that expense is gone, you still have the bigger shovel.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's still there.
[Cliff]
It's still there. This is like, wow, this is nice.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, it's so good. Well, and that's good. You know, you're just keeping yourself open, open to possibilities.
[Cliff]
Just like a can opener.
[Speaker 2]
Just like just opening, opening things up, unstuck, getting yourself unstuck, popping stuff out of the can. Yeah, we can just keep going.
[Cliff]
Break the seal.
[Speaker 2]
You're breaking the seal. So many metaphors. Should we do one more question?
I feel like I do.
[Cliff]
I think we're really lengthy on this episode, I think.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, we should probably bring it to a close then.
[Cliff]
Yeah, I think so.
[Speaker 2]
We'll just keep going. We could just keep doing this.
[Cliff]
We could. And if I'm not mistaken, I think you and Bridget are heading out of town or something like that.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah, in the RV.
[Cliff]
Hello.
[Speaker 2]
Yes, we're going to really be taking it out on the road. So yes, we're going to wrap up the episode. Call to action.
Cliff, did you want to talk about some coaching opportunities that you have?
[Cliff]
So the first thing I just want to say is thank you to the two people who were listening last week who took me up on my offer. If you are full-time, self-employed, as a business owner, or you're in senior leadership, and you are ready to take your experience to a whole new level of success, whether it's more fulfillment, more satisfaction, more love, peace, and abundance in your life. If some of those things are sometimes lacking in your day-to-day experience professionally, I absolutely would love to offer you a complimentary 90-minute one-on-one full-blown coaching experience with me.
I currently do eight 90-minute one-on-one sessions every single week. About four to five of those are paid clients, and I almost always make room for about three to four people every week to give a complimentary coaching experience to. The people who benefit most are those who are full-time, self-employed, or who are in senior leadership levels in corporations.
So if that's you, and you would like to have a complimentary, no strings attached, no expectation, no obligation, you will ever become a paid client, I would love to chat with you. All you have to do is email me like two people did last week. Cliff at Cliff Ravenscraft.
Yeah, so there's plenty of spots open. So cliff at cliffravenscraft.com is my email address, and the subject line just put coaching offer.
[Speaker 2]
Perfect, and we're gonna wrap it up on that note right there.
[Cliff]
Thank you, Daphne. This has been awesome improv-ing with you.
[Speaker 2]
It's always great improv-ing with you. I mean, every show really is improv-ing. We have an outline sometimes, but we just do whatever.
[Cliff]
We always have an outline, and I always quickly glance at it before I come out here. It's like, let's see what Daphne threw in there.
[Speaker 2]
I'm gonna start making them real nuts.
[Cliff]
I love it.
[Speaker 2]
All right, we'll be with you soon. Until then, keep playing this great game of life.
[Cliff]
And choose your own adventure.
