LIFE009-Who Am I?
[Cliff]
And we're live.
[Daphne]
We are. I'm glad it tells you so that I don't have to be like, Cliff, we're live.
[Cliff]
Whoever we are.
[Daphne]
What a great lead-in. You're so good at the lead-ins. Yes, we are going to talk about who are we really?
And I like to say, what are we? Even who implies. And there is a experience over here, I would say.
Probably experience over there, maybe. We could say here and there. It helps language sort of falls away at a certain point, but we're going to take a stab at it today.
We're going to talk about it, who we are really. So I think we'll get the show started.
[Cliff]
Let's do it.
[Announcer]
Welcome to Life, the ultimate choose your own adventure game with hosts Cliff Ravenscraft and Daphne Scott. Join this dynamic duo as they explore the profound concept of life as a thrilling adventure, blending ancient wisdom and modern psychology.
Embrace the joy of living with presence, creativity, and playfulness. It's time to navigate the game of life together. Are you ready to play?
Let the adventure begin.
[Cliff]
Daphne, I am ready to play.
[Daphne]
I am with creativity and playfulness. So last week, last week, you mentioned that there were certain words that would sort of hit you in the introduction. And this week, and so I thought, okay, this next week, I want to pay attention.
What words just sort of hit me? And so I just, you know, drifted into the introduction of the show. Creativity and playfulness hit me today.
[Cliff]
I love that. Creativity and playfulness. I enjoy the idea and the concept of playfulness.
And sometimes I have to remind myself that life is something that is designed to be enjoyed and that you can be playful and that that is not like, there's not some age that we reach by which time we, it's like, it's time to be serious now. It's time to get responsible.
[Daphne]
Yeah. Oh man, this is great because we're going to talk about one, what I feel, and you might agree with me, but what I feel is one of the things that we experience in this great life that can completely erode our ability to be playful and throw us into this idea of seriousness. And I like to say, I like to make a contrast between being serious and being sincere, which I think are two very different things.
So this one thing that can lead us into this seriousness, because even when kids are playing, they are sincere about what they're doing. They're like all in. Right.
But one of the things that can lead us away from that and throw us into this sort of it not being so fun and it feeling very serious and very real in a sense, this idea of an identity, this idea of who we are. Right. And so when we think about the game of life or playing a game of life, I think it is also worthy to talk about the roles that we play in life.
And it leads us down this path of recognizing on some level that we're not as fixed as we thought we were. We're going to get into that today. Fixed entity.
And this was all sparked by something that came up on last week's show that, that you had said, we drifted into it a little bit and then we were, you know, we were trying to stay on topic as best we could. And I thought, well, let's talk about the identity. Let's talk more about these roles.
Let's talk about this game that we're playing. You know, right now I'm playing, I guess I would say podcast host. You could call it that.
[Cliff]
Yep.
[Daphne]
Yeah.
[Cliff]
Yes, absolutely.
[Daphne]
Right. That's what I'm doing.
[Cliff]
I'm playing the guy who's trying to stay within the bounds of the topic. I'm playing the guy who is waiting to say something pithy and interesting and engaging.
[Daphne]
So good.
[Cliff]
Yeah. I'm trying to please everyone.
[Daphne]
Also a role we can play, right? The pleaser. So that's what we're really talking about today.
And I think where we'll get to is talking about, you know, what are the benefits? I want to be really intentional around what are the benefits of these roles? What are the benefits of seeing that we're in a role?
What's the benefit of recognizing the roles that we're playing, how they at all can be helpful? And then also, when is it not so helpful? How do we get ourselves trapped, so to speak?
How do we actually get ourselves constricted is a word that I would use around a role that becomes an identity. So I like to call it the identity trap and how it doesn't become helpful. So that's what we're going to talk about today, Cliff.
[Cliff]
I love that. And to kind of set the stage, I have a story that I feel prompted to share. When you and I were discussing this podcast, this was an idea.
This podcast was an idea in your mind for a very long time. And there were many hints dropped that you'd like to have me co-host this show with you. And I'm like, Daphne, that sounds like a great podcast.
It sounds like so much fun. And you're talking about, yeah, there's going to be so much playfulness and joy and all this other stuff. And I remember saying to you, it's like, that's all great, Daphne, but I just don't see how I fit into this.
I'm not a very funny person. I'm quite serious.
[Daphne]
Actually, what you said was I'm not a playful person.
[Cliff]
That's what it was. I'm not a playful person. I don't see myself as being like a playful kind of guy.
Well, exactly. And the thing is, you said, well, that's not how I perceive you. And the reality was, is that once I stopped saying what was in my thought about who I was in that moment, because quite frankly, I'm in a position where being playful was not necessarily what I needed to bring to the table in that moment.
I was playing the role of coach. I'm playing the role of somebody who is trying to not necessarily be about what's going on in my life, what I think, and having fun and playfulness. But I want to really get into what's going on on the other side here.
I want to step outside of my perception, and I want to get into this perspective. How is Daphne seeing things? And it's like, listen, this is serious business.
And so what was funny is I was so caught up in that role, R-O-L-E, that in that moment, I was not a playful person.
[Daphne]
And I would add probably your belief about the role too, that that role did not include, there were certain things allowed in that role and certain things not allowed in that role.
[Cliff]
Yeah. And the truth is, is that role, I play variations of that role in different productions, if we think about plays. So with you, the reality is, is I do show up a little bit more playful.
We have fun. I sometimes will say pattern interrupts that are intended to really be shock value, and you will laugh and all that, and that's being playful. There are some people where it's like, if I were to say that same thing to them, they'd be like, I don't know that I actually want to have any more conversations with this guy.
And so there are places where being playful, and so when I thought about the overall, because I'm playing the role of coach, R-O-L-E again, and in the average total, being playful is not typically what I do when I'm in this mode. And I was literally in a mode where that my identity as coach and my identity overall, even though I can tap into playfulness, it's not the overall thing that I do. And so I'm thinking, I don't know, given what I'm currently feeling about how I'm being in the world, that I'm a great person to be a playful co-host.
[Daphne]
Well, I gotta tell you, and I'm glad you brought it up because you've really been struggling.
[Cliff]
Oh, yeah.
[Daphne]
It's been a real challenge over here. Yeah, it was a great conversation. And when you said it to me, I remembered, I sort of paused and I'm like, that is not, I don't think that's true, because that is not how I experience you.
Now, we probably, you know, we could get into semantics, and we can get into sort of, you know, different definitions and how it shows up and how you imagine playfulness feels and how I imagine it feels and all these sorts of different ideas. Nevertheless, I think sometimes it's helpful that we can sort of expand in some way, right? That we can sort of say, well, for whatever playfulness is for you, when does it show up?
How does it show up? What does that mean? And I think what's the real gift underneath that is you're willing, and we're willing to sort of let go of an idea to go, well, maybe I can try this.
I'm like, let me see. Of course, I know I can play, like whatever that means in your world. And so you were willing to let go of something, right, to expand, to transform, to let something else come through.
And that is the essence, I think, of what we're talking about.
[Cliff]
Let go of a prescribed way of seeing yourself. Yeah. What I love about it is you pulled out the fact that you let go of, and specifically, I just want to point out, because it's going to foreshadow our conversation, I let go of that identity.
I let go of the beliefs that were the makeup of the overall identity. And I'm like, hey, I'm willing to take direction here from myself or the environment and say, there's an expanded way that I can be in this context.
[Daphne]
Yes. And it can be tricky business to allow ourselves to that level of, I'm going to use the word freedom here, to allow ourselves that level of freedom to say, well, maybe who I think I'm seeing myself as in this role or in this moment or whatever, maybe I can see it differently. Maybe there is something different here that wants to come through.
And I'm talking about it like it's super easy. It takes a little practice, and then it gets easier. But that's the trap.
If you would have said, let's just play this. You brought up the story, so I think it's a great one. Let's say you would have said, no, you know what?
Daphne, you're great. And I'm just not a playful person. I can't do it.
So now there's this, I mean, look at the opportunity you may have missed, right? We wouldn't have done the show together. We wouldn't have gone on this journey together, which probably could have been fine in the end.
Nevertheless, it becomes what I call sort of a rate limiting factor for our lives, that we don't allow ourselves to experience different, in a real simple way, even a different job, a different career. Because I can't do this, I'm this, right? Therefore, I can't be that.
So I think that's what we'll get more into the limits of this. But I think that that's sort of the opportunity that's in front of us when we can, in a very sort of high-minded way, when we can allow ourselves to shift. There's another big shadow part to this, however, that I think really can set the tone for our lives, which is we get so attached to who we think we are, that we create a lot of conflict and a lot of chaos.
And that's the, you know- Been there, done that. Also, have done it. We all do it.
And we do it, and we can do it minute by minute as well. So I think that's the shadowy part of believing that we are a certain way, or we can also negate a lot of feedback that can be helpful to us around how we're showing up and who we think we need to be in the world. So we'll talk more about that when we get into the identity trap, I think.
[Cliff]
Sweet. I'm looking forward to this.
[Daphne]
All right. So where does this come from? I do get asked this question quite a bit.
If I do work with people on the idea of the personality or the idea- You and I have talked about the Enneagram, for example, which I think is just a fabulous tool for understanding some of what I call our leanings of a personality. It also is a tool that really shows you also what's possible inside a personality, which means that- I think some people missed the point of this tool, but it also shows you that you're not fixed, that there's this vast array of how we can- the lenses that we can look at the world through, and also how we can take the lenses off. So anyway, we've talked about that tool a little bit.
But where does it come from? People say, well, where does this identity come from? Where do I get a personality?
And we can go into the nature-nurture conversation. I don't know that that part- I don't know that the why is as important as the what and how we pay attention to it. So I just want to address that in case people have that question.
Like, where does this come from? I think that it's- who knows? It's multifactorial and, you know, I don't put a whole lot of attention on that.
I do, though, like to talk about how we start to see ourselves in the world and what are the tools and the skills and the tricks and all the things that we can use to sort of understand more about that. So I think that's talking about how do we know? Yeah.
Okay.
[Cliff]
So when we go to the what is it or how, where does it come from? I think it's important to describe what is it because this was very helpful to me when I was first confronted with this idea of that I am not who I think I am. I have been an avid journaler most of my life, and I'd heard this story about this centurion in the guard, this Roman guy in the centurion guard, and the guy goes across this building and he goes this way.
He goes, Halt! Who are you and why are you here?
[Daphne]
Yeah. And this was the question from last week's show, by the way, that sparked this conversation.
[Cliff]
Exactly. And so this whole idea of, well, who am I? And I began to journal that.
And I've asked myself as a journal prompt, who am I and why am I here? I have at least 50 or 60 versions of the answer of that question. And it's evolved over time.
And what I discovered is, wow, if I look back at my earliest versions of this, my persona of who I am, my identity, at least how I described and believed myself to be, was the best version of a persona that would interface with the greatest number of people in such a way that I could live a somewhat comfortable life, a life of certainty, a life of connection and love, a life of significance, meeting all of these human needs that I feel.
It's like, wow, I have created a version that will interface with the most people in the most positive way, at least of my belief system. It's like, well, gosh, I'm not any of those things. Those are just things that I've created.
It's programming code. So the first thing that woke me up to the idea of personality and that it's a created thing was I was browsing through TikTok. The first time I'd ever heard of said guru.
And he comes on and he says, you don't know what a personality is. The original root word is persona. And the word persona means mask.
And so back in these Greek plays, they would actually have actors on a stage and actors would hold a mask up to their face and say, I am this character. And then they'd pull off that mask and pull on another mask and I am this character. And so all of a sudden he says, one day, somebody put glue on one of the masks, it got stuck on their face.
Now you have a personality. And I'm like, I could not get that metaphor out of my mind. And I recognize it's like, wait a second.
I do have a certain way of being when I'm with my mom and dad. I have a certain way of being when I'm with clients. I have a certain way of being when it's just me and my wife.
And it's like, what is that? Which one of those is who I am? And what I recognize is that those are all different belief systems about what's the best way to interface in this environment.
And I recognize that, wait a second, I'm not a coach. I'm not a husband. I'm not a father.
I am not any of those things. Those are all ways of being that I am capable of experiencing in this world of which many of them I enjoy. And then all of a sudden it's like, wait, there's something that I don't enjoy.
And I could actually just take that mask off.
[Daphne]
Radical. Radical. That's a great description.
And that is really the essence when we start really looking at it. That is the essence of the whole thing. These are all roles that we play.
And I'd have this experience with clients if we did, well, I'll use the enneagrams example, but any surveys that ask about, that survey will ask certain things like, I like this. I don't like that. Essentially to create the identity, the certain identity has to have things that it will do, things that it won't do.
So you described sort of being a husband, we'll say. There's certain things as a husband you will do, certain things to fit that role that you won't do. That you, for you is one thing for somebody, which is also really fun for somebody else.
Which is always really great. So the identity takes on really this idea of what it likes and what it doesn't. And I would have people say to me, clients, and it took me, it took me a couple years to really understand what was going on here, but they'd say, well, yeah, at work though, it's like this, but when I'm home, it's like that.
So there would be something at work that would be different for them than when they got home because they were in a different role. And so the things that were okay at work may not be okay at home or the things they liked at work, they wouldn't like at home and vice versa because their roles were different. And so it took me a minute to sort of understand it, you know, as I listened to that and I'd get that feedback, it's like, oh, it's because it's a different identity.
It's a different role that you're playing. Of course. So then, you know, the answer was, oh yeah, of course, that makes total sense because in this role at work, you will show up one way and in your role as parent, you'll show up a different way and his role of husband or wife or whatever the role is, you will show up slightly differently because there are certain things that you're going to like and would be acceptable in that role and other things that wouldn't for you. Right.
So it's, yeah. So that's a great description. And so it becomes the persona, the mask then can get stuck on our face.
And now I'm Daphne who, what is something that, oh, last week we were laughing about, you know, I don't like this. I don't like the word hobby, you know? So I, oh yeah.
So now my whole life is going to revolve around that. Yes. And it gets stuck.
[Cliff]
I want to, I want to read a quote that kind of woke me up to this idea that I might be something other than my identity even further. This comes from the book Supercoach by Michael Neill, N-E-I-L-L. It looks like this for anybody who's watching on video.
But anyway, I'm going to read this one section. He says, a quick look into a baby's eyes will reveal that we are born at peace, in tune with the infinite, in touch with our bliss, resting in the well of our being. But even, let's see here, but even when we're a baby, our very human needs from time to time interfere with our connection to this innate wellbeing.
We experience physical discomfort. And because we don't yet understand the source of that discomfort, we do our best to do what we know how to do. We scream bloody murder.
Then to our delight and amazement, someone comes in, makes it better. They feed our hunger, dry our bottom, entertain our nascent brain with funny noises and rollercoaster-type movements. And before we know it, we're nestled back into the bosom of our innate wellbeing.
Over time, it's the most natural thing in the world for us to begin to connect and even attribute that return to wellbeing to the people or activities that seem to be causing it. We're okay because mommy loves us. We're okay because daddy protects us.
We're okay because the people around us, for the most part, appear to have our wellbeing at heart. And then one day we do something in our innocence and joy that mommy and daddy doesn't like. We splash paint on a wall or scream when daddy is tired.
And suddenly the ocean of love that we're used to swimming in is filled with sharks and other monsters too horrible to mention. Before long, we've bought into the myth that love and wellbeing exists outside of us and the need for personality is born.
[Daphne]
That's so good to get our needs met, right? I'll take on this, you know, I'll take on this persona because I think this is expected for me to fit in. Or I'll take an opposite so that I can stand out.
So I can be separate. And it's an interesting dynamic where the persona wants to fit in and blend and merge at the same time that it can want to stand out and be separate and different. Yes.
[Cliff]
Yeah. There are two more quotes that I want to read and then we can discuss anything, but I was pulling it when I was looking at the outline for today. The second quote is this.
It turns out that if people approve of what we're doing, they won't hurt us most of the time. So we learn to be nice and do as we're told so that they will approve of us and we get to stay safe, at least for as long as they keep approving of us. In doing so, we develop a personality and act that will fool all of those scary giants out there into believing that we're actually the way that they want us to be.
[Daphne]
Yes.
[Cliff]
The problem comes when we forget it's just an act. When we start to believe that we are actually who we're pretending to be.
[Daphne]
Yes.
[Cliff]
And the last... Yeah, go ahead.
[Daphne]
No, keep reading. No, keep going. I'll come back.
Keep going.
[Cliff]
Then the last quote is this. Most of us have spent so long pretending to be whatever it we're pretending to be, that any pretense of living from our true selves is long gone. We begin to make up a new story, one based on our underlying awareness that we are not who we appear to be, that any moment we'll be unmasked and found out to be the phonies and frauds that we are.
The number one thing I get as a coach, imposter syndrome. All right? And then the more energy we put into developing our mask, the more convinced that we become that we really need a mask in the first place.
[Daphne]
Yeah.
[Cliff]
Unlike our true nature, which is something we're all born with, our personalities are conditioned and maintained throughout our lives. At first, they develop as a kind of unconscious reaction to what's going on in the world around us. Those are the quotes that I wanted to bring in today.
[Daphne]
I love it. Let's go back to that middle one. And I think when you said, um, what was the read part of that section of that middle one.
[Cliff]
So it turns out that most people, that most people approve of us, of what we're doing. They won't hurt us most of the time.
[Daphne]
Yes. Okay. So, and, and here's the, here's the flip.
I'm just having a conversation with a friend this weekend, as a matter of fact, you know, where, where we can't even see a person clearly, she was saying like, I'm really surprised. And I said, I'm not surprised by this. She was talking about another person.
I'm not surprised. Had you noticed this, this, and this. So in, in certain ways, we can train people to see us in a certain way and they can miss the nuances of our personality too.
And I think that's the other sort of trip that we can go on, put ourselves on where we're not appreciating how nuanced other people, you know, people are in our lives. Right. And we want to see people in a certain way as well.
We want to believe that because for example, someone has a leadership role, that they are going to do everything perfectly. Not so. That is a myth, but we set ourselves up for our own disappointment too.
And I think that's the other side of this within our, not only within ourselves, but by doing that to other people, I call it ising, we is people. Right. So Cliff is that way.
Well, right. Maybe not. So it becomes sort of a two-way street in the, in the world of identity.
And then, you know, Cliff, as long as you play your role and I play my role and we don't say anything differently, everything will be fine. This probably comes up in intimate relationships more than any, any place that I've seen it come up. And as soon as we start to recognize why is this person suddenly, why is she, she, or he suddenly into football?
Like what is going on with that? Right. This becomes a real, these are the things that become a real affront in a relationship because now this, yeah, there isn't an isness over there.
Right. And, and Lord help us if it starts to shift in any way.
[Cliff]
And Lord help us all if that person has somewhat of an obsessive personality and goes really deep off the deep end on their interest in this new, bright, shiny object.
[Daphne]
That sounds like the voice of experience.
[Cliff]
Maybe.
[Daphne]
Yeah, maybe. So yes. So we, we figure out how to get the good stuff, how to avoid the bad stuff, which by the way, is really helpful.
I don't see that in and of itself as a problem. Right. It makes sense to me that we want to feel comfortable.
We want to feel good in our lives. I was talking to a person, a client about, you know, she was paying attention to how much alcohol she was drinking and I, and which was great. And I just said, look, you know, you have to understand on one level, this could become a problem.
Yes. And what you understand that what all you're trying to do is make yourself feel good. Right.
That's really what you're trying to do. So if we can stay in that thread and understand what has happened in your life that you don't feel good. And is that something that can be changed?
And then if it can't, what's the level of acceptance look like? And then how are the other ways, what are the other million options of ways that you can feel good in your life? Right.
Beyond, you know, going to alcohol, to self-medicate. So once we can understand and accept on some level that really that's all we're trying to do. We want to feel good.
We want to enjoy our life. I mean, I don't know about you. I don't want to wake up feeling miserable and stressed out and not feeling good.
[Cliff]
Not very frequently. I don't want that. Yeah.
Not very frequently. Sometimes I choose it. Interestingly though, there was a time that my system of belief somehow at some unconscious level did want that.
I did want to downplay how well my life could be and all this other stuff, because quite frankly, misery loves company and I'm around a lot of misery. And if I don't experience some level of misery, I may not be a part of this club anymore. And I'm so tied to this peer group that I need at least some level of misery to be able to feel like I'm a part of this environment.
[Daphne]
Yeah. Of this tribe, right? Whatever your tribe is.
Like if I'm not doing this and I cannot be in that tribe, you know, whatever that thing is, right? If I'm not, I mean, I just think about the words of like hard work.
[Cliff]
Yes, exactly.
[Daphne]
Why?
[Cliff]
I had a friend of mine, they came into a coaching experience and I said, what are the things that you most want to accomplish? I want more time freedom and I want more money freedom. And I'm like, well, I want more success.
And then I said, what is success to you? More time freedom, more money freedom. I'm like, okay, great.
So what is it that's keeping you from having it? And she goes, I'm afraid of success. I'm afraid of getting what I want.
[Daphne]
Wow.
[Cliff]
And I said to her, it's like, okay, why are you afraid of that? Well, because most people in my life don't have freedom of money and they don't have freedom of time. And I'm afraid that other people in my community will judge me.
And especially from this particular group of people where they see money as being evil. And also there's this thing where it's like, there's this Protestant work ethic that says, you know, you haven't earned it unless you've worked hard and who are you to store up for yourself and all this other stuff. And at some point earlier in our past, I mean, people would be put to death for some of these things that they want to go after.
And somewhere at some unconscious nature, this has been these thoughts and these beliefs have been handed down from generation to generation. It's like, listen, let's just survive together.
[Daphne]
Let's see if we can just barely get by.
[Cliff]
And she was very much in a culture of life is about survival, but she had a dream of life is about thriving. And in essence, what she was afraid of is losing her identity, which she was already starting to break up with. But when she lost that identity, she literally is changing.
And that group very much was accepting of the old persona. And she's afraid that that group, and rightfully so, that old group has expectations of what persona or mask that she will carry for the rest of her life. And as a result of that, she's afraid to grow beyond it.
And that's really, I think, the essence of where it's okay to have an identity, it's okay to interface, but there's this thing called identity crisis. And some people just don't know, who am I if I'm not this? I know that I'm miserable here, but at least there's some known quantity of comfort and security with this group of people.
Out here on this other side, I don't have an environment. I don't have a tribe. I don't have people who support me.
And I'll be all alone. And what if I'm wrong? And what if they're right?
And it's the great white unknown. And who am I if I'm not this? And so, yeah, breaking out of an identity and persona, one that you've played and grown up in that community, that tribe, that system of beliefs, it can be incredibly challenging.
[Daphne]
It really can be. And this is a wearing a really tight pair of pants when we get stuck in the identity. I don't know if you've ever worn a really tight pair of pants.
[Cliff]
I have worn a... There's this time I went off keto for a couple of months, gained all this water weight.
[Daphne]
My pants were very tight. Yes, and it's very uncomfortable. And kudos to your client for recognizing they were afraid of success.
Most people are unwilling to recognize that that's what's happening. Imagine... I was doing a lot of coaching within organizations.
We do check-ins, beginning meetings, and I'm really stressed out. I got so much going on, and I'm really overwhelmed. And I just waited for one person to be willing to sit in the room, like, I actually am having a great time.
I am loving what I'm doing. My plate is so full, and it's so great because I never know what I'm going to be doing at any one moment. And I'm just loving it.
It almost never happened. But part of the reason it never happened, I think, is that if you showed up that way in that group, A, people would think you were nuts, probably lying to some degree. And C, you would be really unaccepted on some level, because there was a belief that...
There was just a belief that work had to be really hard. It had to be stressful. It had to be overwhelming.
It had to be chaos. And I watched that so much. I'm sure you experienced that with your clients.
So much of these beliefs that are ingrained in there that make up that identity, that work identity, or that entrepreneurial business identity, right? This is what that looks like. And one of those beliefs, I think, around that identity is that it has to be overwhelming, as an example.
I guess we'd call it leaving the identity. Maybe that's not the best way to talk about it. Taking off the mask is what I would say.
Yeah, that's great. Taking off the mask. So I mentioned earlier at the top of the show, there's a shadow that comes with this.
And so you started to talk about it, Cliff. What happens when we're miserable? It's comfortable.
Katie miserable, right? It's a familiar pattern. The persona, the mask is familiar.
There is something to that, but we're also becoming miserable. And what does it look like for us to be able to shift out of that? And also there can be the real deep part of it where we're making everyone else around us miserable as well.
And this is the shadow side of the identity that I think most people are, that we can become unaware of. That playing this role no longer fits and I'm continuing because I believe I have to, or I'm scared to let it go. And so how do we work with it and start to understand a little bit more of this?
And this is where I really want to go in the show because the identity in and of itself, it's fine. I mean, we've talked a little bit about the ego on previous shows. That in and of itself is not the problem.
It's when we get stuck in the mask, we get stuck with a tight pair of pants on. I'm really creating quite the character in my mind, by the way. Well, you know, it's when we get stuck in these things that we can start to create misery for ourselves and misery for the people around us.
So I think we can talk about shifting. How do we shift through that? How do we work with this?
[Cliff]
Well, here's something that's interesting as you were talking about that. So for 12 years of my life, I worked as an insurance agent with my mom and dad in a family-run insurance agency that was started by my grandfather in 1937. And I was next in line to take over the family business.
However, in December 2005, Stephanie and I launched our very first podcast and got some amazing success right out of the gate. We were early adopters to this technology. We were reaching tens of thousands of people right out of the gate.
Within a year, reaching well over 100,000 people every single week. And I began to ask myself, what would life be like if I weren't going to sell insurance for the rest of my life? What would life be like if I could entertain, educate, encourage, and inspire others with my voice?
And I felt so much guilt and so much shame for even having that thought, which began a level of misery like you would not believe.
[Daphne]
If you can remember and get underneath it, what was the guilt and the shame part of it? What was the identity sort of fighting? What was it telling itself?
I'd just be curious.
[Cliff]
Here's the thing is, Cliff, all of these people that you've gone to school with and all these other people you've been watching the technology news and all this other stuff, everybody is getting laid off. Job security is becoming scarce. You have friends who are married, who have young children, and they are on food stamps.
They're trying to find jobs. They've been unemployed for three months, six months. You know a handful of people who couldn't take it and committed suicide.
Life is difficult and challenged. And by the way, every single professional in the financial industry says that something terrible is coming in 2008.
[Daphne]
And therefore, who do you think you are?
[Cliff]
Who do you think you are to go pursue your hobby, something that lights you up, something that's so fun, and leave your absolute job security behind when you are a husband and a father, sole income earner? That is so irresponsible. How ridiculous for you to think people should pay you to do your hobby.
There's your favorite word.
[Daphne]
Yeah, my favorite word. Thank you for using it. Yeah, I mean, this is the voice of an identity.
This is what I was talking about when I said the shadow. This is what starts to happen. We are now no longer able to move through life following the things that are of interest to us or creating a different world for ourselves because we've got this, this, and this, and that becomes a persona.
So you had the persona of probably several. One was the persona of the responsible husband and the persona of the responsible father, I would imagine.
[Cliff]
And also, there was the persona of the responsible son to take over the business when mom and dad retire.
[Daphne]
Yes, the responsible son. So a lot of the responsibility. And then there was the guilty, what would we call him if we had to name him?
So there's something about the guilty employee or something, right? There's like guilt. All of these sort of running.
By the way, we said it was one persona. I think what's really great here is you can see how there were all these different personas in your crew. Yeah, definitely.
[Cliff]
I'm going to bring another element to this that I don't know if you've ever heard this story before. But at the same time, within the 12 years that I was an insurance agent, 10 of those years, I was also an associate pastor in a Christian church.
[Daphne]
I knew you had some pastoral background, but I didn't know where that fit in if it was occurring simultaneously or something else.
[Cliff]
It was simultaneously. I was never paid as a pastor, per se. We won't get into intricate details.
But quite frankly, I made so much money as an insurance agent, I didn't need it. So here's what I want to tell you, though. And I'll try to make this as brief as possible, but it so goes into this identity thing.
And I'm going to bring the real guilt and shame side of it to the highest degree. Here comes the guilt and shame, everyone.
[Daphne]
Be ready.
[Cliff]
I am incredibly successful as a podcaster. I'm publishing at this point. I'm still working full time as an insurance agent with this dream of one day doing this full time.
I've decided to start a podcast called Podcast Answer Man. I'm now training hundreds, if not eventually thousands of people within the first year how to launch a podcast. I'm an associate pastor, and I go to our church of over 5,000 members at the time.
I said, Hey, guys, we have these sermons that are being put out on CDs. Why don't we create a podcast? One of them said to me, Cliff, we have definitely seen the potential for podcasts, and when we're ready, we will hire a professional who can do it with excellence.
First of all, let me just tell you, that was a hit on the ego.
[Daphne]
You're like, okay, but no one knows even what podcasting is.
[Cliff]
Exactly. And by the way, this is way before Cliff knew anything about emotional intelligence or anything like that. I was fully ego persona identified.
That kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Anyway, then they said, Cliff, we want to talk to you about something. My pastor and another associate pastor said to me, we want you to fulfill this role within the church, which requires all of these additional things of you.
I said, I can't do that. I'm a full-time insurance agent. I'm already doing this here within the church.
It's about somewhere between seven to ten hours a week, and I'm putting out all of this content. Yeah, we wanted to talk to you about that. We think that you have lost sight of what God's calling in your life is, and we think that you are so caught up in what the world has to offer you and all this other stuff that you've really lost touch with what God wants you to do with your life.
[Daphne]
Were you on a party line with them and God?
[Cliff]
Yeah. At the time, Daphne, my persona, my belief system says, these are my authority. I should listen to them.
God has clearly put them in my life to hear from God more clearly than I'm certainly able to hear for myself. Because of that system of belief, you know what I decided to do? I went back home.
I felt so much guilt and shame about my dream of wanting to do this full-time and all this other stuff. I made the decision I was going to immediately quit podcasting. Wow, really?
I stopped podcasting. Cold turkey. I woke up Monday morning, and I laid in bed until it was about five minutes before I had to be at work.
Luckily, our insurance office was just outside of our neighborhood. Still, I showed up late. Quite frankly, Daphne, for the first time I could ever recall in my life, I experienced the most severe, darkest depression ever.
All I could think about all day long was how many hours before I can go home, put my head on the pillow, and become unconscious again.
[Daphne]
Wow.
[Cliff]
I woke up, and I did that. It was that experience of life every single day, Monday through Friday.
[Daphne]
How long did you do that?
[Cliff]
One week. Saturday, I woke up, and I'm like, I can't. No.
I started podcasting again. I went into that group's office, and I said, listen, you guys were absolutely right. You guys both came to me, and you said you kind of have been sensing that God's given you a message that maybe I might be forgetting about my true calling, and that I might allow other activities to be a distraction from that true calling.
I think you guys are absolutely right. Through this past week, I've discovered that my true calling is what I'm doing through podcasting, and everything I'm doing in this church is a distraction from that. I resign from everything, and our family is leaving.
[Daphne]
Wow. That's an amazing story.
[Cliff]
That took an identity shift.
[Daphne]
Well, a major one. I don't know all the pieces of it, but just right off the top of my head, I would imagine there was a whole community of people you were interacting with. Yes.
[Cliff]
I was the small group's pastor for all of the young adults in a church of 5,500 members. I was the small group pastor, and I led all of the leaders of all of the small groups within the church, which if you think about all of the people, is probably about 300 or 400 people that I was serving.
[Daphne]
Yeah. Some of them probably were very close in your life at the time, I would imagine.
[Cliff]
They were my closest friends.
[Daphne]
Right. Now you're going to leave that community. That's a huge deal.
You're going to leave that community. You're stepping not only the community side of it, the belonging part of it, you're letting go of that, which is huge. People really can dismiss that.
They think a lot of times when they're going to go through a shift that it's the money, their role, their job, which is important. Also, there's a community of people. Who do I belong?
What tribe am I in now? What am I going to do? There's so much we could unpack in that story.
[Cliff]
There's another thing that I want to say here. You might say, well, gosh, how does one do something like that? This is part of the reason why I brought this story in.
One of the things that I want you to know is this is about 12 to 18 months after I started podcasting. I want to remind you that maybe a couple of hundred people in this church are my closest people I spend the most time with. I also want to let you know I'm putting out 7 to 15 podcast episodes a week.
That is 7 to 15 hours of podcast episode per week, reaching eventually hundreds of thousands, but at this point, well over 100,000. I have more than 1,000 people who are consistently writing to me. While they're not in my physical presence, I do have a new community that is actually seeing Cliff well beyond what the people at the church are.
It's like they're able to see things in me that I'm not able to see in myself. They're actually writing to me and telling me those things that they see. I'm like, wait a second, maybe I'm more than just this local community guy.
[Daphne]
Yeah.
[Cliff]
I don't want to just say that I was this brave soul that just took and left everything and now I'm out in the wilderness and surviving on my own. I did have another community. Another identity had already spawned and I had already found a tribe that would accept that new identity.
By the way, I'm seeing it now as I had a belief that I needed a new identity and I needed a new tribe to survive. There is some level of truth to that in this world, but I wanted to share that's how I was able to make that jump. I love it.
It wasn't just Cliff's gone and I'll figure it out. There was dipping my toe in the water and it's like, oh, you know what? I think I could make it over here.
There are people here who love me more unconditionally than I was getting in another area.
[Daphne]
I appreciate what I'm doing. I appreciate you saying too, Cliff, because it was 12 to 18 months. There was this transition that was occurring, this transformation that was occurring.
I think I encourage anybody who's listening to give themselves those moments of grace because that often can feel very unsettling when we go through these transitions. I've gone through them several times in my life. As a matter of fact, just this last year, I was a physical therapist, as you know, for many years.
Just this last year, my last round of being licensed, I had to renew my license. It comes in the email. Hey, your license is going to expire.
I'm like, great. Fantastic. I'm just letting that go.
That took several years to get to that state of really no longer seeing myself and all the stories, oh, you spent all this money on your education. I had a wonderful run as a physical therapist. It was great.
There was a time for it to come to an end. When we can get into that space and allow ourselves the grace to make those transitions and to move, then we open up opportunity. Now, there's a new identity that's coming through, the musician identity that's coming through and the community that's happening of musicians for myself.
We can give ourselves those moments and appreciate that and let go of these things that can take a minute, which is fine. It's fine.
[Cliff]
Yeah. Yeah. Something that I feel inspired to share right here, and this ties into the episode right before this, because last week we talked about our, not hobbies, our areas of interest, bright, shiny objects, our creative endeavors.
Thank you. What just came to me is like, you know what, it wasn't the start of podcasting. It wasn't just a 12 to 18 month period of time.
I remember I started my very first blog in 1996. There was no such thing as the term blog, by the way. I used angelfire.com and I taught myself how to code with HTML and I literally built a blog. We called it an online web journal at the time. I found other people who were doing this and we were sharing blog circles. Here I was, even back then, already creating this community of people all over the world and engaging and encouraging and all this other stuff.
It actually even started a whole decade before the podcast came up. If there's anything about this is, what is that new passion? What is that new thing that sparks your interest?
Some people say, why are you so into this? Why do you waste so much of your time doing that? It's like, whoa, Cliff isn't that person, but now he's doing these things that we've never expected before.
Yeah.
[Daphne]
You were no longer the is they had made you into.
[Cliff]
Exactly.
[Daphne]
They've been paying attention. I think this is the other real gift when we can really learn to pay attention, the other gift that we can see the nuances of people and start to appreciate that, too. I'm sure your community had a lot of reasons for you staying just as you had been.
[Cliff]
Yep.
[Daphne]
We can also appreciate each other, I think, and the nuances that we bring to it. When we are open and when we are willing to allow ourselves to transform who we think we is, it can be really helpful. The first part of recognizing that we have a persona, we have masks that we wear, we have roles and identities, and who we're being in those moments and how we're playing the game in those moments, which is great.
Then there's the second part of recognizing when we're making ourselves miserable. By the way, I do want to acknowledge that that week you were the most depressed that you had ever experienced in your life, it sounds like. What happens when we're really trying to shut that part of ourselves off, when we're trying to deny what wants to come through us, more depression is very descriptive.
[Cliff]
I was literally trying to push it all down.
[Daphne]
We were depressing the energy, this creative energy that wanted to come through you. Then there's that third part, which you were starting to talk about, which is, what am I really anyway? I think once we start having this experience of recognizing that we're not fixed, that we both seem to enjoy podcasting.
This is the second show I've done. I seem to enjoy it. I don't know if I always will.
People would ask me, like, are you doing your next show? I don't know. I have no idea.
I don't even know if I'll do another show. I've had this idea for a while. The truth is, I don't know.
I don't know what I'll be doing a month from now. The truth is, I don't know. I think I have a path, but who knows?
That's when we start to loosen the mask, when we start to get out of our tight pants, so to speak, we can start to let go of a lot of the stories. The person's work who I love, that I think really nailed a lot of this, is Byron Katie. She has a book that anybody can see.
There's several. One of the questions that she asks, and this is the title of one of her books, who would you be without your story? Who would I be without the story and the narrative that I created around this name, by the way, that I didn't even choose, around this identity called Daphne?
Who would I be without my story? What are the stories that I tell myself about who I am, what I get to experience, what I don't get to experience, what I like, what I don't like? What if I just let go of that story, all of those stories, then what's possible?
I think this is that third bucket of what is it? We learn to work with identity. We see its utility.
We also see where it has a very limited utility, and then we start to move a little bit beyond it. We start to ask ourselves, and you were talking about this at the top of the show, well, I can see where I'm not a father all the time. If I'm not a dad all the time, then that can't be I'm not that, because I'm not that that doesn't last all the time.
I'm not always in that role. I'm not this podcaster all the time, because I'm not always podcasting, so I can't be that. As you start to work through and see that these roles that we're playing are not there all the time, so then what is?
[Cliff]
Who am I all of the time? What aspect of me has never changed?
[Daphne]
I've not found it yet. Therefore, when we pay attention in a deeper way, there's an essence that can come through this. If I think of myself as sort of a portal, it can come through this sort of portal.
There's an essence that will come through that you probably experience, and I can feel it, and it's not fixed. It's not always there, so when we are able to really dive deeper into what is happening and question that, then we have this real loosening. I've experienced that as loosening.
I don't know how you would describe it, but for your own experience, but this real loosening of the solidity of what this thing is over here, and I start to see that it is simply this momentary passing experience that is just coming in and coming out and coming in. That's how I experience it, coming in and coming out, that there isn't really anything fixed over here. Nothing is.
[Cliff]
Yeah, that's the key, that nothing is fixed. Everything is changing. Anything that has a beginning has an end.
One of the things that, coming from where I am today, my perception is, if I go to the essence of the best words that I have latched on to is that if I could describe who am I that hasn't changed as far as I know is, I am the awareness of what is going on. At my core, that's what I am. I am the awareness.
Another phrase that has really stuck that I find a lot of value in is, I am not my thoughts. I am the thinker.
[Daphne]
Yes, and even that, the thoughts arise. This is one of the deeper pieces of work, too, I think, when we get back into that space of impermanence. When people have been recognized at the first moment that, oh, thoughts are just arising, I'm not creating them.
They simply just come. This is one of the greatest places we get attached, that we get caught up in an identity. I have a thought, and I grab onto the thought.
One of the mystics, I can't remember his name, but he would say, your thoughts come, and you do a lot more bothering your thoughts than they do bothering you, because they want to come and just drift away, but they show up, and you latch onto it, which I think is so great. Yes, so you are experiencing the thought that arises.
[Cliff]
That's the best way that I can describe who I am. I am the awareness of what's happening. I work with a lot of people, starting out with people who are struggling with their emotional states.
They have this belief that I am angry right now. I'm like, are you? Is that who you are?
Your identity is angry. It's like, what do you mean? I say, well, tell me what's going on.
They tell me their story of what circumstances is playing out. I said, okay, do you feel that in your body? Yes.
I said, now, do me a favor. Tell me one more time. I am angry right now, because that's what they had already told me.
I said, now, do you feel that? Tell me, how do you feel? It's like, well, my heart's beating.
I'm tense. I feel. I'm having them check in with what's going on in their body.
Do me a favor. How about instead of saying, I am so angry right now, how about you say this? Try this on for size.
I am aware that there are feelings of anger rushing through my body. They say that. I said, is that true?
I sat there. I said, oh, so you're the one who is aware that anger is happening. You are not the anger.
That begins an incredible conversation that goes on and on and on and on.
[Daphne]
Yes, it does.
[Cliff]
Yes, it does.
[Daphne]
What you're really pointing to, Cliff, I mean exactly that. As soon as I have no choice then, if I am this thing, then I've got to show up that way. If I start to believe I am angry versus I am experiencing in this now moment this.
I like to say in this now moment, because I think it gives breath to the impermanence of the whole experience. Any experience that we have is impermanent. One of my favorite, and I know we're both big Tony Robbins fans, but one of my favorite examples he gives in one of his books, I think it's Awaken the Giant Within.
You're in a really heated argument with somebody, a real heated conversation, and you're going back and forth. Then the phone rings.
[Cliff]
Yes.
[Daphne]
I'm like, look, Cliff, I just was like, hello.
[Cliff]
Then you hang up and you can't get back. It's like, wait, where do I find that? I know I put it somewhere.
I'm supposed to still be angry.
[Daphne]
It gives a perfect example and a lived experience. If we pay attention, I'm like, yeah, none of this is fixed. None of this.
We can really swim in those waters and be completely happy and play the roles we play and play the game of life. We don't have to get attached to anything. That's freedom.
[Cliff]
Exactly. The fun part is I can't imagine in a million years me sitting in an insurance office ever again. Although it is some sort of a recurring dream where there's an alternate universe where I'm still doing that.
I've talked to Daphne one-on-one about this. It still comes up every now and then. I wake up and I'm like, wait, no, I don't work at the office anymore.
It is funny.
[Daphne]
It is funny. It is. Maybe there is.
I don't know. I still have dreams that I'm still in high school trying to remember my combination lock. I don't know.
[Cliff]
Here in this reality, I cannot imagine sitting in an office and doing this insurance stuff that I did for 12 years of my life, where I thought that was going to be my identity until I retire. I can't even imagine it. There was a time I thought maybe I will do ministry.
Maybe I'll be a pastor. I can't imagine that role for myself anymore. Right now, it's like, okay, I'm a coach and I do these things.
But these are not, that's not who I am. I'm not a coach. Coaching is just something that I do right now.
It is a creative endeavor, and it's something that I find exciting. But I can, even though coaching has been what I've been doing for a very long time, I could see a day where it's very positive. I couldn't imagine sitting there and having one-on-one conversations with clients about their issues anymore.
Who knows what I'll be doing next down the road? I'm not tied to this.
[Daphne]
Yeah, you're not tied to it. I do think what you are playing with that is helpful is the idea of, when you say, I can't imagine doing this, what you also are pointing to, if it's not that, you're imagining something else. There is a gift in setting a vision for our life or there is a gift to say, I've created a lot of misery for myself.
I'm trying to think when I got stuck in my own misery. I created a lot of misery for myself by thinking I had to keep working in this corporate environment. Let's say that one.
Or that I had to keep working at all. I retired last year. But I created a lot of misery for myself.
Same story. Who am I to do that? Who am I to say, I don't want to do this?
Who am I to set myself? You coached me through a lot of that. Who am I to be in this?
Who am I to move through the world in this way? At the same time, there's a benefit of having a vision of, well, if it's not that, then what direction would you like to go? What experience would you like to have?
And I think, Cliff, that's what you're describing is, I can't imagine having the experience in my life or desiring the experience in my life to be in a cubicle talking with people about insurance. That doesn't seem like an experience that resonates with you anymore. There is another experience that does.
When we start to understand more that it is less to do with our roles and our identity, but more about what's the experience that we want to have in the world. I'm glad you brought that up because there is something to that, and you're not attached to it.
[Cliff]
So, Daphne, that leads us to some other future topic where a lot of people who are suffering, I would really like to drop my identity of what I do professionally now, or I'm stuck physically or emotionally abusive marriage or any other circumstance. And the trouble that I see most people experience in creating a new identity for themselves is that they don't have a vision of where they want to go. All they know is what they want to get away from.
And so the focus, their actual focused energy, thoughts, and attention is on what they don't want so much to the fact that they have no clue what they do want. And if there's a starting point, that's how you begin to create. That's the beginning process of taking off the identity off the mask is actually stop focusing on the mask you want to take off and start thinking, what is the new mask I'd like to experience?
What's the new environment I'd like to step into?
[Daphne]
That will be our next episode. Sweet. We're going to wrap it up.
I have one quote from Alan Watts, who we both read and I would say both probably adore. Here's what he said. Here's his quote.
You are under no obligation to be the same person you were five minutes ago.
[Cliff]
I love that.
[Daphne]
You are under no obligation to be the same person you were five minutes ago. I actually love that quote. Yes.
[Cliff]
I do too. I especially love the concept of five minutes ago. It's real easy.
It's like you're under no obligation to be the person you were a decade ago. And it's like, oh, that's easily acceptable and blah, blah, blah. But you're under no obligation to be the person you were five minutes ago.
And if people only knew the freedom behind that truth.
[Daphne]
Yes. Well, I think we will encapsulate this in our next episode. I think we're going to go through in this great game of life, making these shifts and making these ways of being and finding out how to set a vision for ourselves and then what it feels like to really step into that.
I think that's our next episode.
[Cliff]
That's what we'll do. I can't wait.
[Daphne]
Me either. All right. Well, you can find us at chooseyourownadventurepodcast.com.
We're going wrap up this show. Thanks for being with us today. We love being with you and you can leave comments for us.
Go to the show notes. We have links in there. We link to all of the references and things that we mentioned in today's show as well.
So you can go find them and we're going to see you next week.
[Cliff]
Oh, and before we go, I do want to say this.
[Daphne]
Yes.
[Cliff]
You are a musician who makes a living from music. Daphne wants to talk to you.
[Daphne]
Yes, I do. Thank you, Cliff. That is very supportive.
Thank you.
[Cliff]
And you can email her at Daphne at Daphne-Scott.com and just put music in the subject line. She can't wait to hear from you.
[Daphne]
Thank you, Cliff. With that, we will wrap it up. See ya.
