Life: The Ultimate Choose Your Own Adventure Podcast
Ep 07 Map Of Consciousness
[Daphne] (0:00 - 0:01)
How are you feeling today?
[Cliff] (0:02 - 0:13)
You know, I've been better. Life seems to always be against me, and I can never catch a break. And when I do, it's just like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, quite frankly.
[Daphne] (0:13 - 0:26)
You know what's so funny is that even when things are good, I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop. I like to do it that way. Like, just get it real good, and then just like kind of just wait, this is gonna just crumble down around me.
[Cliff] (0:27 - 0:52)
Yeah, well, obviously, for those who don't know me, I am absolutely making that stuff up. Sure. Because if you were to ask me on any given day, about 999 times out of 1000, if you ask me how I'm doing, how I'm feeling, I would tell you, I have never been better, and it gets better every single minute of the day.
[Daphne] (0:52 - 0:54)
And with that, we're gonna start this show.
[Intro] (0:58 - 1:26)
Welcome to Life, the ultimate choose-your-own adventure game with hosts Cliff Ravenscraft and Daphne Scott. Join this dynamic duo as they explore the profound concept of life as a thrilling adventure, blending ancient wisdom and modern psychology. Embrace the joy of living with presence, creativity, and playfulness.
It's time to navigate the game of life together. Are you ready to play? Let the adventure begin.
[Daphne] (1:27 - 2:57)
So we're gonna be talking about, I call it states of consciousness, which I'll get to. We are going to be talking about, however, and this was based on a lovely request you had in our last episode, to talk about the map of consciousness, which was written about by David Hawkins. Now, this was a book you've read, I read this book, and also his other book, Power Versus Force, I forget how many, I mean, many, many, many years ago.
And I thought it was an excellent introduction to this idea, just to the idea, and it was at the time when I read it, and I'd love to hear your experience too, Cliff, but at the time that I read it, I didn't recognize that I could shift my experience simply by understanding what was going on in my mind. So that's a very simple explanation. And that there were different ways of my, what we're gonna call consciousness, and we'll get into this a little bit more, because I think words are important, as you know, and getting a little bit more definition behind that, a little more structure behind it.
Nevertheless, I wasn't aware that until I got my hands, you know, there were several things converging all at once, but until I got my hands on this book, I thought it was just an excellent description of how we may be relating to things, how we may be seeing the world, and that we have options available to us. And so that was very eye-opening to me at the time when I read it. So I'd love to hear your experience when you read it, and what about it got your attention so much?
[Cliff] (2:58 - 3:17)
Yeah, well, first of all, I'd love to answer that question first. Why are we talking about this? And it came out of last week's episode, where we began talking a little bit about the big leap.
And there's a question in the big leap. Are you willing to have your life go well, and to feel good all of the time?
[Daphne] (3:17 - 3:25)
By the way, no matter, this is crazy, no matter what is happening in your external circumstances.
[Cliff] (3:26 - 3:29)
Is that additional part of the question in the book?
[Daphne] (3:29 - 3:34)
No, I added that part, because that's the implication under the question.
[Cliff] (3:35 - 4:46)
And I've come to understand that additional language as well. But still, I wasn't aware of that part, because in fact, I had such a, is it right to say visceral reaction to that question? What a stupid question.
That's like the first thing that came out. What is he talking about? Why would you even ask a question that is so clearly impossible?
Because in my mind, I'm like, there's no way. Things happen in life, and some things seem to be out of our control. And as a result of that, obviously, my feeling good is determined by what's going on in my world around me.
And that being outside of my control, certainly, I am not willing to even suggest that I even attempt to feel good all the time. Why even ask such a stupid question? Those are some of the very unconscious beliefs that came to the conscious surface of my mind as I heard that question the first time.
[Daphne] (4:46 - 6:50)
Well, and I don't think that your visceral response is unique, because I can confidently tell you when I read that, I was like, this guy's nuts. Okay. And it is that experience that we have of the external, boy, this episode, I'm just so into this.
It is that experience that I think most of us have, and that I can have from time to time, still, that when things in our external environment, let me say it this way, that we are dependent on things in our external environment. So notice I'm not talking about our internal, I'm making a distinction here, our external environment to go as we expect them to go. And if they don't, then I can become and will become the most petulant child you have ever met.
I will be unhappy. I will be dissatisfied chronically. So life goes my way.
And it made sense to me when I read that question. Also that like, this is crazy. Of course, that's how I see life.
Of course, that's how it must work, because that's all up to that moment. But it isn't entirely true that that's all I experienced. Because when I looked back at my experience, I'm like, of course, things had happened in your life that you didn't, you know, that you didn't let impact you in a certain way, right?
That didn't go the way you planned. Nevertheless, my experience in that moment, or the way that I had seen the world, was that things must go my way, life must show up, if the business isn't doing well, I am miserable. Right?
If I didn't get the sale, I am unhappy. If I didn't get the client, I am unhappy. If the profit margin wasn't where it was, I am unhappy.
Right? If my significant other said this or didn't say this, then I would be either happy or unhappy based on how they were responding to me at the moment. And so, you know, that had been my experience of life up until that moment.
So I think that reaction is very real. I think it's very, yeah, I don't think it's unique. And I think it takes a minute to sort of go, well, let me question that just a second.
Let me find out.
[Cliff] (6:51 - 7:35)
Yeah. And that's what I did. I stopped reading the book right then and there.
And I went down some rabbit trails in my mind, evaluating, pondering, and all this other stuff. And then I recognized something. I made this mental image in my mind suggesting that somehow he's suggesting that this is what I ought to be experiencing.
And I went back and I looked at the question again, and I realized that it asks, would you be willing, if it were possible, yes, would you be willing for your life to go well and feel good all the time?
[Daphne] (7:35 - 7:37)
And that's a very different question.
[Cliff] (7:38 - 8:50)
Exactly. It is a completely different question. And it's ironic that I did not pick up that that was the actual question.
Yeah. It's just, you know, are you experiencing this? You know, and if so, why not?
What's wrong? It's like, but then all of a sudden it's like, gosh, if it were possible. So let's take out my resistance to the idea that it would be possible and say, okay, if it were possible, would I be willing to feel good all the time or to have my life go well all the time and feel good?
And I was shocked to find out that I was resistant to saying yes. Yeah. Yeah.
That for some reason and unbeknownst to me at the time, I did not feel good about saying that I would be willing to feel good all the time. And it brought up for me then all sorts of beliefs about my own unworthiness and it wouldn't be right for me to feel good and to have my life go well when there are so many other people who are experiencing things. It just brought up so much within mine.
[Daphne] (8:51 - 9:58)
Do you know what mine was? My resistance was that I would be crazy, like that I would be seen as crazy and therefore be kicked out of the community, you know, be kicked out of the cave, so to speak. Right.
Yeah. I had a very similar experience of just seeing the resistance to that. Right.
Because it's a willing that word is so important to would you even be willing? And there's another word. I don't think this is in his original question, but there's another word to would you even be willing to allow this to be a possibility?
Right. Which is a total bravery question. I think that's a total like would I be even willing to even allow this possibility?
So, yeah, I love that you're bringing that up because I think, again, that is an experience that most of us have. Like, no, I'm not. I'm not willing.
I'm not worthy of my life going well all the time. And for me, it's like if I really walk around the planet just saying like, yeah, I get I'm not I'm not negating that things don't go my way. I'm not I'm not negating the experience of impermanence here at all.
Things are constantly falling apart. I'm not negating any of that. And I also am willing to relate to all of that in a certain way.
And boy, will I seem nuts.
[Cliff] (9:59 - 11:55)
Yeah. Well, so my experience after that was, OK, if it were possible, would I be willing? I finally was able through some transformation in my own experience of life and in my mind and in my beliefs, was willing to I was actually able to get to the place where it says, OK, if it were possible and I'm not saying it is right, but if it were possible, yes, I think I would be willing to feel good and have my life go well all the time.
Yeah. And that began to set me in motion a journey of exploration related to this topic that ultimately led to the map of consciousness many years later. Yeah.
Like five or six years later. But I wanted to say this is where it all began for me. And the idea then is like, OK, well, I'm willing to do this and I'm out there looking to grow personally and professionally.
In fact, the book was all about the big leap. And it's about taking a big leap from your zone of excellence work and discovering your zone of genius and maybe trying to find a way to incorporate a higher percentage of your zone of genius in the work that you do in life. And I'm like, well, gosh, this is what I want.
I want to make a transition from this, which was podcast technical consulting into this over here mindset and helping encourage people and helping people experience less suffering in life. And as I began to make the big leap, all of a sudden I was like, OK, I'd like to host big conferences. I'd like to make a living encouraging people, but I don't know anybody like that.
And then my friend Ray Edwards says, well, you're sure you don't know anybody like that? I said, OK, well, I don't know anybody personally. I think the biggest name that comes to mind is Tony Robbins, but I really have never followed any of his stuff.
[Daphne] (11:55 - 11:55)
Yeah.
[Cliff] (11:55 - 12:00)
And he says, well, why don't you follow some of his stuff? Why don't you go to one of his conferences?
[Daphne] (12:00 - 12:03)
Because I'm not willing to have my life go great all the time.
[Cliff] (12:05 - 13:33)
So I was I'm like, that's a great idea. So I signed up for one of his UPW, Unleash the Power Within conferences, took my wife Stephanie. We walked on fire, which is an amazing experience.
But anyway, before that, I purchased Creating Lasting Change, a 10 day audio program. And would you believe that on day one of this 10 day program, he says in this program, I'm going to teach you how you can control your emotional state moment to moment at any time. I'm going to share you three, the triad, three strategies that will help you control your emotional state in any given moment, guaranteed.
And I'm like, OK. And so he taught it. And I learned about physiology, focus and assigning of meaning or language.
Yeah. And sure enough, all of a sudden, here I am with many different experiences of life where I am experiencing an emotional state that is less than desirable for me. And by shifting my physiology, my focus for a moment, getting into a better feeling place and then bringing my focus back to what the original stimuli for the negative emotion was and then changing the meaning of how I relate to it.
Yeah. And reframing it. And I'm like, sure enough, wow, I actually do have the ability to feel well in spite of this.
Isn't that crazy? This is crazy.
[Daphne] (13:33 - 15:04)
It's crazy. Well, and do you see the light, the, you know, the benefit of that question, too? And we'll get into more of David Hawkins stuff here in a second.
But the benefit of that question, like when you talk about moving into your zone of genius, you're going to have a different experience of how you relate to your work because you're going to be working in such a way that you're loving what you're, you know, we'll say doing, you're loving how you're being in the world. But if you're not willing, and I think this is where his question is so genius. Now, I don't want to get to another episode on The Big Leap, the book.
But if you're not willing to experience your life that way, and we often don't catch this. If you're not willing to experience your life in a certain way, then you will unconsciously create situations so that you can't. It becomes sort of the, I think people are familiar with like the self-fulfilling prophecy idea, right?
And it's not that we do this perfectly all the time. I'm not saying that that's the whole point. Nevertheless, when we're willing to experience it, we catch ourselves.
So what I hear, Cliff, is you had this question posed to you. You were willing, you were even willing to experiment. Well, okay, maybe, I'm not saying this is possible, but let me see, which also I love about you.
There's just that curiosity of just, let me just see, right? Seems reasonable. Let me try it out.
And then you have this experience, the true embodied experience of like, oh, wow, when I really try this on and give this a shot, this does change how I'm relating to life.
[Cliff] (15:05 - 15:26)
And so- And I also want to point out also the fact that I was willing to say, if this were possible, I would be willing. And just weeks later, a three-step process of exactly how to do what I said I would be willing to do if it were possible came to me.
[Daphne] (15:26 - 16:18)
Yes. And by the way, this is, again, let's asterisk that, because I think this is the other thing too, is often people get very hung up in, yeah, but how? How?
How am I going to do it? How am I going to do it? And instead of starting with, you know, I'm willing to even, I don't know how.
I really don't know how I'm going to do this. Like I'll take reasonable actions that seem to make sense towards my goal or towards whatever it is I'm wanting to experience. I'll do reasonable things.
However, at the end of the day, I don't really know how. And then when you just get aligned and get committed, right, you were willing, which was a form of your commitment level at the time, then it showed up and you were able to see it. Imagine, I just wonder, imagine if you weren't willing and you went ahead and you went to the conference anyway, we'll just say, but you weren't, you weren't really committed.
You weren't really willing. That may have skipped right over you.
[Cliff] (16:19 - 16:41)
Well, here's the interesting thing. If I weren't willing, I wouldn't have gone to the conference. If I weren't willing, I would have never had the courage to dream further and investigate any other options other than my podcast consulting worth.
If I weren't willing, I'd still be where I was.
[Daphne] (16:41 - 17:45)
Well, probably. But people do often take actions even though there's not willingness there, right? Like that's what I'm kind of pointing to.
Like you could have still, you could have gone there. And I think this is really important when we talk about these states of consciousness, map of consciousness, this is important because we can not be fully committed or fully willing to experience something different and still be taking these actions that look reasonable. I like to just keep, I like to say it that way, look reasonable.
And yet we don't, we don't get really the juice, so to speak. And we have to check ourselves and say like, okay, where am I, where am I still close to this experience? Where am I still really fighting for my, I like to say fighting for my limiting beliefs.
And where am I still experiencing more of that instead of looking, looking deeper to go, well, am I really, you know, I'm here. I, you know, I could see, I could imagine you're not really willing. You sign up for the conference anyway, because you're like, okay, I'll just go.
I'll kind of see what this is about, but I'm really not expecting a whole lot. I mean, I've read a lot of this stuff before. And it becomes that sort of consciousness level.
[Cliff] (17:47 - 19:45)
Yes. And I do want to say this, this wasn't my experience, but I definitely understand what you're saying. There might be somebody who, let's just say, and I don't like to deal with hypothetical terms, but what I'm going to do is using the same experience of what we just talked about.
I'm going to share very real felt experiences of my life, but I'm just going to transfer, transfer the experience metaphorically to this scenario. So I've metaphorically, genuinely experienced this in the past. So here's what I, what I'm getting at and what you, what you were asking.
So maybe somebody says, Hey, Cliff, I'm buying you tickets to go to this conference. I really believe it's going to change your life. You've been talking about your dream of doing something beyond podcast consulting.
I really think this is going to help you, but I'm not willing to feel good. I don't feel worthy of doing this things. Somebody else buys me the ticket.
I decide to go and stuff like that. And then during UPW, let's just, and by the way at UPW, he also talks about the triad and, but, but here's the, here's the scenario. And this is how it would have played out in my previous level of consciousness.
When he got to the triad, something would have been said, or I would have been triggered in a resistant way to how he expressed something that would have conflicted with a deeply held, maybe faith-based belief inside of me. And in the moment I'm literally processing, I totally disagree. Wow.
Should I even be here? He seems a little too in it new age for me. And in my mind is literally turning on judgment and criticism and maybe condemnation all the while the triad of how to control your emotional state is being mentioned.
And I'm sitting there physically present, but not hearing that part of the teaching.
[Daphne] (19:45 - 20:10)
Yeah. And, and by the way, you were, you were describing, I was trying to think of, I love, I love your call to just not stay in hypotheticals. I was thinking of trying to think of an experience I've had, but even, even to a point where, have you ever read something or you've heard something or you've listened, let's say you've listened to a podcast or something, and then you go back and you listen to it and you're like, I didn't remember.
How did I miss that? How did I not hear that person say that?
[Cliff] (20:10 - 20:39)
How many times have you heard me mention in all the years we've worked together? How many times have you heard me mention creating lasting change? The 10 day audio program from Tony Robbins?
No less than 50. Exactly. I have listened to every minute of that 10 day program more than 30 times.
And, and just the other day, driving to the gym, I was listening to day seven of 10.
[Daphne] (20:39 - 20:40)
Okay.
[Cliff] (20:40 - 21:10)
And I clicked play right where I had left off a couple months earlier. And I'm listening to Tony talk about something. And I swear to you, I never heard about the difference between content reframe and context reframe.
Never before has Tony said that in the last 30 some odd times I've listened to this program. I picked up on reframing, but he added content reframe and context reframe. Wow.
That really opens up a whole new understanding of this reframing.
[Daphne] (21:11 - 21:29)
Thank you. Thank you for being a living example of what I was talking about. Yeah.
And I'm not saying you weren't open to, to what was being said. It just things, things based on our level of consciousness at the moment can strike us differently. And that's really what I was pointing to.
And so our level of resistance to things can, can shift, can, can make a difference. Yes.
[Cliff] (21:30 - 22:33)
And here's, here's the thing where we are in our level of consciousness is it is, it's going to be, it's going to determine what our limit, limited conscious awareness and attention and focus will, will be attracted to. So for example, there, there were certain things that I would hear Tony say in one of the programs. And so basically what happens is it's like, wow, that statement Tony just said is amazing.
It's an audio program. I'm driving. He's still continuing to talk, but Tony's basically the teacher of Charlie Brown in the background.
Meanwhile, I'm going down an entire imaginary journey of how this is going to radically transform my life. And it's what I picked up in, in that moment. And our level of consciousness I think is what determines what level of teaching we're able to pull up, pull out from anything that we're exposed to.
[Daphne] (22:33 - 22:39)
That has been my experience. You know, I can't count for everything, but that has absolutely been my experience as well.
[Cliff] (22:40 - 22:46)
Yeah. There's this saying that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
[Daphne] (22:46 - 22:47)
Yes.
[Cliff] (22:47 - 22:58)
And in the context of this conversation, I've adopted a slightly modified state statement. Okay. And that is when the student is ready, the teaching will appear.
[Daphne] (22:58 - 22:59)
Yeah.
[Cliff] (22:59 - 23:00)
Oh, that's good.
[Daphne] (23:00 - 23:01)
Instead of a teacher.
[Cliff] (23:01 - 23:16)
Yeah. The teacher's been there the whole time. Yeah.
And for me, as, as I've shifted my level of consciousness, I recognize that, for example, reading the Bible for me today, I see things that I never saw previously.
[Daphne] (23:16 - 23:18)
Isn't that something? I love it.
[Cliff] (23:19 - 23:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
[Daphne] (23:20 - 23:40)
Okay. So let's, let's go into let's go to David Hawkins map. You know, he calls the map of consciousness and I'll give some responses to that as well.
There are some reframes that I have on it that we'll talk about, but let's kind of walk through that. And I know you want to talk about this, so let's dive into that just a little bit. Let's give a, let's give the map a map.
[Cliff] (23:41 - 23:42)
All right.
[Daphne] (23:42 - 23:42)
All right.
[Cliff] (23:43 - 25:52)
So which map are you most familiar with? Cause there's a lot of these different maps that are shown, but the one that I am most drawn to, and I think it comes from Dr. Hawkins and it is, it's the image of a pyramid pointing down. So it's a triangle with yeah, with the smallest point at the bottom and then it expands upwards.
So and then the one that I look at is typically it's filled in with color and at the bottom is, is red and then slightly fades into orange, then yellow, then green, then blue, and then purple. And then, and it gets up to some other areas. And in essence, the best way I can describe this, and I'm describing this for our audio listeners, including those who are watching on a live stream, cause we're not having the visual representation on the screen.
Basically there is to the right of this pyramid, there are levels of consciousness. Now there is general, there's generally a number associated with each level and each level also has a, an emotional state. So I'm going to describe real quickly at the very bottom on the map of consciousness is level 20 and it's shame.
And then level 30 is guilt. So guilt and shame are at the bottom of this levels of consciousness or these emotional states. And then at level 50 is apathy.
At level 75 is grief. At level 100 is fear. 125 is desire.
150 is anger. 175 is pride. And then finally breaking out of what's considered to be a specific category of consciousness.
Finally, if you can get to level 200, you get to the word courage or the emotional state of courage.
[Daphne] (25:52 - 25:52)
Interesting.
[Cliff] (25:53 - 26:26)
Now, the way that I understand it is that every emotional state that you could possibly imagine, and of course there's not enough room on this map to put every different descriptive emotional state that we could experience, but every emotional state would fall somewhere and calibrate somewhere within this levels of consciousness. And that's, I'm going to stop there and then I'm going to let Daphne say anything else at this point. And we could potentially go into a little bit more about the map.
[Daphne] (26:27 - 27:18)
So first of all, I think what he did and what I like about it is that he is describing these different emotional states. And this is where the word consciousness is what I want to make this sort of point because it's really important, I think. I don't even know how we define consciousness.
I mean, consciousness, there are so many ways that people have tried to describe it and to define it. And Thomas Nagel's probably my favorite. He had this question he asked, which was basically like, what's it like to be a bat?
And what he landed on in his philosophy, he's a philosopher, was consciousness, that when we're talking about consciousness, we're describing like there's something that it's like to be that. So what is it like to be experiencing guilt? What is it like to be experiencing shame, to be experiencing pride?
So what I like about what David Hawkins did, and when did he write this first book? I can't even remember.
[Cliff] (27:19 - 27:21)
I don't remember that either.
[Daphne] (27:22 - 29:54)
Well, a while ago. What I like though is he was giving voice and he was describing the states that we could experience. And, you know, in sort of giving this sort of playing this out, like when you're in the experience and being like guilt or shame, life will probably feel this way.
I also like that he sort of did this in a pyramid way, which by the way, it's a different shape. It's a different pyramid, but Maslow's hierarchy of needs feels opposite. But, you know, it's a good model and description.
What I also like is that the transition in this state, he described as courage. And so when I think of this, you know, and there's a different model that I've used from the conscious leadership group, which was a derivation of Gay Hendrick's work, by the way, which they looked at, you know, if there was just a line, you would have fear below the line and you would have trust above the line. And so when you're functioning from a state of consciousness below the line, you are more in these, they just bucketed as fear.
But when I look at David Hawkins, he gives much more of a description of sort of like, well, what are the experiences that I have when I'm, when I am operating from fear? What is, what can that look like? Well, I experienced more shame, right?
I'm afraid that I'm not worthy. I have fear around, you know, I feel guilty about something that I did. I feel afraid that I'm going to get found out or, you know, all these sorts of different experiences of that.
And then he starts making this translation to courage. So now if I'm in a state of trust, what does that look like? And he describes it.
What I don't like about it is that I think it implies a hierarchy. And I think that the, if I look at it and that's why I use the word more state instead of just a map or just looking at a hierarchy. When I look at it more of a state, what I, what I have is more of an acceptance, I think for myself around, I could vacillate.
I'm going to vacillate through some of these states. There's not probably, as far as I can tell, and in my experience, there's not going to be a place where I'm just in a fixed part of this map. And the reason that I think of it that way is I think it can, I think when we get into a hierarchy, it can start to set up more of this sort of ego trap.
I'm just this being that's always at the highest state of consciousness. And, you know, that's not been my experience. Now, what I can say is that, and I think you would probably agree is that there is this ability to see that very quickly and to choose different.
[Cliff] (29:54 - 29:54)
Yes.
[Daphne] (29:54 - 29:54)
Right.
[Cliff] (29:55 - 30:18)
So anyway, there is, there is the question, there is the question of who is the I that I am referring to when I am this state, but, but, but, but agreed bodily identified and an ego identified. Yes. That I, so my understanding of the, and by the way, I'm not saying that he don't, I don't want to be really careful.
[Daphne] (30:18 - 30:22)
I'm not saying that he said anything about you're always going to be in one, one of these locations.
[Cliff] (30:23 - 32:20)
I was going to speak to that. Yeah. Yeah.
I don't think he's ever said, in fact, from my understanding is that he's like, listen, this is not necessarily a linear thing that you progress to this level and you attain this and, and that's where you're at. No. In fact I have, I look at the scale and I see where my own experience and progression, there, there are some pretty high levels of consciousness that I have experienced, but yet I still, from time to time drop down to a level of 100 and experience fear.
Yeah. Occasionally, not very free, not very frequently these days, but I, there's occasionally I'll, I'll experience a little level of apathy. It's like, ah, you know, it's like, why bother?
And it's like, where's that coming from? And, and it's always amazing to me to discover just what is inside of me, what kind of belief systems are latent and active within me that are creating this emotional spot, uh, response inside of my body. What I do recognize though, is the understanding of where does one live, like on the scale on average, like in a, in a way it's kind of like, where have I acclimated?
And for me prior to being introduced to this, I was, I would say that I used to live right around 100 to 125. And again, by the way, the other thing, which were the, what level? Fear and desire.
Okay. Okay. I, I, I, I really lived my life right around the range of fear and desire.
Um, and so, and he's not suggesting these are actual literal, you know, all of this other stuff. He says, this is just really for the element of, of seeing how they compare and contrast to one another.
[Daphne] (32:20 - 32:20)
Yeah.
[Cliff] (32:21 - 33:14)
Uh, there's a lot of other things that you could learn about this. I'd encourage anybody if they are interested in this topic, read the book map of consciousness explained. But anyway, what I did recognize is that for a majority of my adult life, I lived at a consciousness level where I vacillated between 100 to 125.
That's where I lived. That's what I called my emotional home. That was my habitual way of thinking and feeling in life.
Now, don't get me wrong. I had my moments of courage. I had my moments of inner light and, and inner grace and inner acceptance and inner love and, and willingness to go try things new.
And sure. I, it's like, wow, but that's like going on vacation. It was like an adventure and it was short lived before I had to go back home.
If you know what I'm saying?
[Daphne] (33:14 - 33:52)
Totally, totally. I mean, that was my, that's my experience. Like, and I think this is also, you know, I love how we're blending the map of consciousness, the big leap together, by the way.
But you know, that is sort of some of that experience. I was joking at the, at the top of the show, the upper limit experience, right? I can only, my, my pattern was similar yet different in that I could only let life get so good before I had to do something, something to bring it back down.
I had to get angry about something. I had to find some unjust, some injustice to be, you know, um, upset about. And so I would do that to bring myself back down.
That was me going back to my home. So good.
[Cliff] (33:53 - 38:00)
So for me, what happened was shortly after this, this big leap into my zone of genius. And I began to spend a majority of my time and I'm talking countless hours. I'm talking anywhere between three to five hours a day, studying how can I live and create the life that I desire?
It became, it became this, like, this is what I want to devote my life to. And what I recognize is like, wow, my courage is going through the roof. My, you know, my level of just accepting what is, it's like, and so willingness and inner light and inner wisdom was starting to blossom.
And all of a sudden I noticed that it's like, wow, for the last several months, maybe even for the last several years at some point, I'm like, this is my home now. Yeah. Don't get me wrong.
New psychic address. That's exactly what, exactly. And, uh, and so what would happen is I would have an experience that was not in alignment with, with that.
And, and that triggered me back to my old neighborhood, you know, and of emotional feeling. And it's like, wow, where is this fear? Where's this anxiety?
Where's this worry? What happened to my confidence? It's gone.
I completely feel down here again. But here's the interesting thing. While I used to live there and that was my comfort zone, it felt so uncomfortable.
It felt like this is not me. Yeah. What's going on here.
And, and what I recognized in my journey is that the amount of time it took me to get back up above 200 and to live somewhere between the levels of 200 to 400 on the scale, which is courage, neutrality, willingness, acceptance, inner law, inner light, and inner wisdom and inner love. Actually inner love is 500. So 200 to 500, that's where I have for the last several years of my life.
I live there that I live between 200 and 500. And that's why if somebody says, Hey, Cliff, how, how are things going? Well, I can tell you right now, I've never been better and it gets better every minute of the day.
And people say, well, are you saying that nothing unexpected under desirable or inconvenient show up? No, I'm not saying that at all. It still shows up, but I have neutrality about it.
I have equanimity. I have a, I have an acceptance. I have inner light.
I have inner wisdom and I have inner grace. I, I, I, I am not resistant to what life brings my way. Like I used to.
And a lot of it just had to get rid of, I had to let go of beliefs about how things ought to be to allow me to live this way. And I'm not saying that I don't get triggered back down into the other stuff, but man, what I recognize now is that I might, I used to get triggered into, let's just say a depressed state and I might be there for three or four days. And then eventually it's like only a day and a half.
And then eventually it's only like, you know, maybe six or seven hours, or maybe it's just while watching one television show, sitting on the couch until I get myself out of it. And, and, and I just recognize that, wow, okay, what brought me there? What took me there?
What would, what would I have to think and or believe for me to feel anxiety, worry, grief, guilt, or shame? And then I'm like, oh, well, that's what I believe. I'm like, oh, but is that true?
And so I'm like, well, no, that's not true. Where did that come from? Do I want to continue to live my life that way?
Is there an empowering alternative? Yeah. And this is my alternative.
And what does this mean? Well, you know, and what can I learn from this? What does this make possible?
And before I know it, I'm right back between the 200 to 500 level again. I mean, beautiful description.
[Daphne] (38:01 - 41:28)
And I think that's, that is really the, to me, that is the whole point of this process work, I guess we could call it. What are we up to? You're like, who cares?
Why does any of this matter? And yeah, I have a lot of, a lot of parts to that, that I think are important. But for example, what is going on for you, not only in your own individual world, but with the people around you when you're in one state versus another, right?
What's the impact that it has on your family and your children and your wife? What's the impact it has on my wife and my family and the people around me and my friends and people I care about when I'm functioning in one state versus another, right? What's the nature of my work in the world when I'm in one state versus another?
And I think that's really the, you know, when I look at this, gosh, they have such a great description, Cliff. When I look at this, it's and not only for my individual life, and I want to go back to something you said at the top of the show, right? Like, who am I to deserve that when there's so many other people suffering, when there's so many other, you know, horrible things happening in the world or other people that don't have this.
And the reality is that when you and myself or anyone is able to shift into these higher levels, I'm going to say higher levels for lack of a better description, but other levels of consciousness, that we actually can become the change that we hope to see in the world. We actually can become something that comes to living with greater compassion and understanding. I mean, so you talked about with acceptance, right?
We can come to the world in that way, and that can open the doors for everyone. That actually creates a different way of just being. So if you desire more of that in your life, you know, sort of when I said like, I want more joy in my life, or I want more ease in my life.
And I think this is the conversation as two coaches that we have with people all the time, right? I want to have more peace. I want to have more love.
I want to have more freedom. I want to experience all these things. Be that then.
Be that which you want to experience in the world, because that will not only bring it forth for you, it actually starts to bring it forth in everybody else. So I think that's more of the, I'm getting sort of like, why do we even care about any of this? And yeah, and I think that's really where I start to land in my own experience of going through these, you know, I know what it was like when I would walk around as a very dissatisfied, angry, frustrated person.
I bet I was just a peach to be with. First of all, just a delight. There was that, but also, you know, not only was I making myself, and I was making myself, quote, unhappy, I also just was functioning in the world in a way that really wasn't that helpful to anybody else either, right?
And I had these glimmers and these moments of those, you know, I can remember being, when I was still a physical therapist, being in the clinic and working with people every day who were in pain, people that were coming in with their own, you know, banquets of issues. And boy, when I was in a state of not, not in a great emotional state, not in a great consciousness state, I was not of the greatest benefit to other people. I wasn't able to do my job as well.
I couldn't hear as well. I couldn't listen to people, right, for what was really going on and what was really needed. So once I was able to make those shifts in my consciousness, once I was, you mentioned your depressed state, and I can have that pattern as well, it's fascinating to me.
Now I'm in a place where when that arises, I find it fascinating.
[Cliff] (41:29 - 41:35)
Yeah, it is like, where's that? I literally sit in this, what I call the seat of awareness.
[Daphne] (41:35 - 41:37)
And I'm like, huh, yes.
[Cliff] (41:37 - 41:38)
Wow.
[Daphne] (41:38 - 42:58)
What caused that to happen? Yeah. And it's just fascinating to me that these, you know, it's to me, it's sort of like being on this beautiful ride.
Like, I'm like, wow, this just came out of sort of seemingly nowhere. And then I do the same thing you do. I'm like, that's interesting.
I don't fight it. I don't get into a battle with it. I'm just curious about it.
Like, what is this experience? And sometimes I notice I even enjoy it. I'm like, oh, man, I'm just gonna sit here and let myself just feel this all the way through.
Like, what does this really feel like? You know, whereas before, well, first of all, I didn't think I would even notice it. I would just walk around in it.
You know, it's kind of back to our conversation on water. I didn't even, I wasn't even aware what was happening. And then getting aware of it.
And I had a path of sort of wanting to, and I think this is another point that you, in your description was so good. There was a point of wanting to fight those things, but then I got to a point of acceptance when these states would arise. And when I would drift into those lower states, when I would get triggered by something that would bring me into those lower states.
And that was even an interesting, that is even instilled to this day as an interesting experience for me. When I get triggered by something and I still have this layer of seeing it and accepting it and being with it in that moment. And you know, the more that I've been able to do that, the more I'm able to be with other people in their states, you know, and I can accept myself.
Right. I think this kind of comes back to like, why do we care about any of this? Why does it matter?
[Cliff] (42:58 - 43:04)
Yeah. There's another book that I refer to all the time and it's called The Four Agreements.
[Daphne] (43:04 - 43:04)
Yeah.
[Cliff] (43:05 - 44:25)
And one of my favorite things is do not judge, you know, don't judge others. Don't condemn others. Just literally just come to this place where you understand that everyone like yourself is doing the best you can with what you have to work with.
Yes. And if you could just come to that place of not judging others, not taking things personally when somebody does something, it's like, wow, this really does change my experience of life. So for me, when I think about when I'm at a higher level of consciousness, and I don't know if we want to go too woo woo into the energetic frequencies of energies, but the fact is, is that our emotions are energy in motion.
And it is energy that we radiate, if you will. I can tell you right now, there's been a number of times I can be in a room by myself and then somebody walks in who's in an angry, mad, I'm like, I am in a furiated state. And I do not even have to actually be turned around and see their face or their bodily motion.
I can just sense that emotion radiating in the room once they've entered.
[Daphne] (44:25 - 46:05)
Yeah, I don't think, you know, I want to ask, I want to grab this just for a second. You know, there is definitely in, I would call it in the self-help world, there's definitely can be a lot of woo woo, just stuff that's just made up, you know, seems kind of crazy. I am a scientist by nature, as you know, I've said that probably on the show already once or twice.
And there is more evidence now to support, you know, that description that what you just described, that that happens for us as human beings, we do have ways of communicating and ways of reading each other. It's not as pure of a science as people would like to make it out to be. And I think there are things that we need to be aware of, i.e. reading someone's facial expression, probably best to ask maybe, hey, I'm noticing something, maybe I'm not reading that correctly, but let me ask you, are you upset right now? Or are you angry about something? Or, you know, I think it's always best to ask. Nevertheless, what you just described is a real thing.
And they do have evidence now to support that there are vibrational energies that are happening. There are these sort of, that's why consciousness is such a crazy, crazy thing, because we can't find it in the brain. Science can't find a place that it lives.
And yet, we do have an experience of what it's like to be angry, what it's like to be peaceful. And we do, so, you know, I just, I want to, I really appreciate you saying that about, you know, kind of getting too woo-woo. And I also want to acknowledge that we do have a greater understanding than we have ever had before.
And I can, and I think that's going to continue. I think we're going to continue to understand more of this. So, you know, for what it's worth, trust your own experience.
I think that would be the better.
[Cliff] (46:06 - 46:24)
Yeah. And understand Cliff is not a scientist and Cliff claims nothing to be, anything that he says to be absolute truth. It's just things that are current beliefs and his beliefs are that a belief is nothing more than a thought that I have some level of certainty that might be true.
And it may not be until it isn't.
[Daphne] (46:26 - 46:42)
So anyway, I just wanted to grab that because I think it's very important. And I do think that we should, you know, and I think that's why we grounded the show on ancient wisdom, modern philosophy and modern or ancient wisdom, philosophy and modern psychology. I mean, that's what we've grounded the show on to, to be able to bring some of these things together.
So.
[Cliff] (46:42 - 49:04)
But I do want to, I do want to bring out the hypothesis, if you will, or suggestion that Dr. Hawkins made. And that is he's, he, one of the things that he mentioned is that the levels or the scale that he assigned to these different vibrational energies or emotional states are not a rhythmically aligned. It's like, okay, whatever, but it logarithmically.
So what he says is, and again, these numbers aren't factual, actual numbers on a scale anywhere. But the idea is that if something is calibrating, an emotional state is calibrating at a level of 30 or 50, or let's say a 30, actually, here's what he would say. He would say, if something's calibrating at a level 50, and then somebody else is vibrating and has a emotional level of consciousness at 100, there's not a difference of 50 between the two as far as power and its energetic radiance.
But what he's saying is almost as though it's, how did he say it? Let me find it for you, because there's the exact phrase. It's to the power of.
So fulcrum to the power. Okay. So it's very important.
This is from Dr. Hawkins. He says, it's important to remember that the calibration figures do not represent an arrhythmic, but logarithmic progression. Thus, level 300 is not twice the amplitude of 150.
It is 300 to the 10th power, which is 10,300. Therefore, an increase of even a few points, or if you just raise your emotional vibrational frequency just by a few points, it's a major advance in power. And so for me, and again, I'm not a scientist.
And so I kind of like to think about this. It reminds me of right when the war in Ukraine started to break out. And there's this friend of mine who remarked, you know what?
I hate those SOBs who are over there in Russia. And as far as I'm concerned, I wish there would just be an, and he's all about, I just want the world to live at peace. And he says, and if I ever saw Putin face to face, I'd kill him in a heartbeat.
[Daphne] (49:07 - 49:14)
Hold on. I want the world. And I am going to murder that guy.
[Cliff] (49:16 - 51:05)
So in essence, what happens, and again, it's a philosophy, right? Sure. The thinking of Dr. David Hawking is one person who vibrates at love can have more worldwide impact on an energetic level of mass consciousness, because we're all kind of interconnected and we're all radiating this back and forth, is that, wow, one of the ways to combat hatred, war, killing, murder is to radiate love. And it's like, is it possible that I could not condone, but appreciate and understand the worldview of somebody who might be operating at a world leader level where they think what they're doing is reasonable and right, even in such a case as this? And can I have love for that person rather than retaliation or something of that nature? Those are the kinds of things for me as I think about it.
It's like, man, it's not that I'm going to sit back and I'm like, whoa, I'm just going to sit back and just let everything unfold without having any input. But I do want, it's like, man, what if I could withhold all of my judgment? What if I could withhold my condemnation, my criticism?
And what if I could accept that every person, what if I live my life by the premise that every human on this planet is literally doing the best they can with what they currently have to work with? And that changed everything for me. So I just wanted to throw that out there.
[Daphne] (51:05 - 51:18)
Well, and I think, and you hit on another point too in that that description and that experience of it doesn't also mean, and I think this is one of the fears that people have, you know, I kind of come back and our mind has a hard time with this. Both things can be true.
[Cliff] (51:19 - 51:20)
Yes.
[Daphne] (51:20 - 51:30)
Right. I can love and accept a human being and also recognize that they might not be safe to be walking the streets and they might be harming other people.
[Cliff] (51:30 - 51:31)
Yeah.
[Daphne] (51:31 - 54:25)
So, you know, and I can come to that choice and that decision. The resultant can look very similar, but the consciousness underneath it can be very different. This is a really big conversation right now, actually.
You know, how we look at emotion, is anyone ever actually guilty, right? If you had the same belief system they did, you'd do the exact same thing. So what does that mean?
I won't get into the whole conversation on free will, but this has a lot of implications in our world to come to a level of understanding. And, you know, I think Cliff, what you're describing is I don't have to go into a consciousness or a state of hate to have a boundary. I don't have to go into a state of projecting, becoming that which I despise, which is what you were sort of describing in that example, to come to a choice of, it would be my preference that we not blow each other up.
It would really be my preference. If I could have my preference, that would probably be it. And I don't have to go into those states to be able to do that.
I actually can be in deep love and deep acceptance and the deepest understanding I can find. When have I created, I love to ask myself this, when have I created war within myself? Right?
When am I a tyrant to myself? When am I a tyrant to the people in my life? When am I a dictator?
When am I all of these things, right? I can see those play out in my own life. So if I can come to some level of acceptance and understanding and love and vibrate from there, it also can mean yes.
And you mentioned I did improv. This was one of my greatest lessons before we were talking before the show. One of my greatest things I ever learned in improv was the skill of yes and.
Yes and both things can be true. Right? So bring that to the table.
So yeah, I think that's a great, again, another great description of sort of that experience of what is it like for me to be in that state and what does that do to myself and the people around me? So David Hawkins' work I think is great. He, you know, in bringing this forth, the part about the energies and that.
So, you know, I don't know about all that. I think that's where a little bit of that work falls off for me, but it's neither here nor there, I think, because I really, I think the experience I had when I first read that was just even getting a glimpse of like, oh, these like, oh, guilt and shame are this. Yeah, I have experienced that.
And what does that feel like? And you've said this a couple of times too. I want to grab this because this can be like a very heady conversation, but really our experience with our body and being connected to our bodies really matters.
You know, you said emotions are energy and they are, right? So I think that's the other thing that I liked about some of his writing and some of his work early on and other people's writing, Tony Robbins too. I mean, a lot of these folks started to bring a lot more about the body into this work and how we relate to our experience of our body, which is invaluable.
It's invaluable.
[Cliff] (54:26 - 54:49)
There are times in just sitting and pondering, self-reflection, I swear I'm at the place where I can literally feel cortisol as a chemical in my bloodstream. It's like at that visceral level, it's like, wow. It's like, oh, okay, it's right about here and I feel it spreading.
It's like, oh, what's causing that?
[Daphne] (54:50 - 55:36)
Well, you know, if I had to get to an action, you know, I think that's an action for everyone is to pay attention to your bodily experience. You know, not just, I mean, the thoughts in your head are so important too to notice, but also when we can come back to the body, it can be very grounding and to be able to get into that experience before the mind can take over. And it's so fast.
The mind is just so quick, but before that can even happen, getting into our bodies, I mean, what you just described, like I know what it feels like when the anger is coming or the joy is coming or the love or the, you know, all of these sorts of emotional experiences and getting in touch with that can be so life-giving to us and it can become, believe it or not, quite enjoyable. To just notice the tingling in your hands, right? And it can be very grounding.
So yeah, we already get to that.
[Cliff] (55:37 - 56:47)
I do want to say this. One, and I think you've already touched on it, is when you find yourself in, let's just call it a lower, what is phrased as a lower emotional state, the first thing is I would not necessarily call those bad. In fact, many of them are incredibly powerful.
I like to say the check engine lights on the dashboard of our life, and it alerts us to things that are there and maybe are not running according to manufacturer specs. So allow that to be what it is. And that negative emotional state is nothing more than the light illuminating to say, this is here, this is going on.
And if you could actually allow yourself to feel whatever emotional state that is without judgment, and then here's a question I would give to anybody if they're ready to start doing, what do you call that? Self-reflection, self-inspection or whatever, and it would be this. What would I have to think and or believe to feel this way?
Yeah.
[Daphne] (56:49 - 56:56)
I love that question. It's a great question. I add to it, what is my recipe for feeling this way?
[Cliff] (56:57 - 56:57)
Yeah.
[Daphne] (56:57 - 59:38)
Yeah. And I think the thinking and believing is really great. I think that, as we've talked about many times, is really the root.
It's the foundation for building your house of joy or your house of shame and guilt or whatever it is, whatever it is you're building. So I want to come back to a couple other things, Cliff, that you said. And one of them you sort of described, and I think this is where these states are so important.
And I think this is where, when I was questioning, was it possible, right? Was I willing and was it possible to feel good all the time? You described this being like your home where you spent most, we'll say time, where you spent most of your time, most of your energy was in one place, but it wasn't there all the time.
And that's the experience that I think, when I worked with myself and when I work with clients, that I ask them to check in with. Like, you don't feel bad all the time. I'm saying, you know, the experience of lower emotional states, so to speak.
But you don't feel bad all the time. Most people would say, yeah, not all the time. Maybe I feel like I'm doing it a majority of the time.
And I think that is something to really look at. Why not? And this comes back to your question, right?
Of what do you think you're believing that's putting you in the state of experience that maybe you don't enjoy as much or that feels like a lower state for you? And then what is happening when you're not? And I think this is the gift also, we can use this experience to look at the impermanent nature of life.
And this is where I think we get into this part of what we were talking about at the top of the show, which is knowing that things are impermanent, that nothing lasts, the external world for sure, as far as we can tell, that we can get into a certain relationship with life then that can, it's sort of a strange thing that can allow us to experience more of these, what we would call higher states, higher vibrational states.
When we sort of see the ethereal nature and we even see ethereal nature of our emotional states, that they kind of come and go, they come and go. Therefore, why get hung up on all of the coming and going and just recognize what the foundation can be underneath it and have the acceptance part of it. So I like to link those two things together.
I think that the impermanence of our experience, the impermanence of living, and then that comes back to a word you used earlier, which was equanimity. There's just a balance to this experience that we have of living. And then how does that affect the people around us?
So I just want to add that to the conversation.
[Cliff] (59:38 - 59:40)
I love it. Thank you. I love it.
[Daphne] (59:40 - 1:02:07)
Now, I want to get to one thing that David Hawkins does talk about. He talks about empower versus force, and he talks about it, especially in his map of consciousness book, which is meditation. And what I love is that, what I love about also his writing is that he does get to an actionable part.
I like all the theory and I like all the hype. I mean, I can do that all day long. And it's sort of like, yeah, but what am I supposed to do with all this?
Just tell me what I need to do. And so he talks about meditation. And I think this is now when you talk, again, that was really woo-woo back in the day, the idea.
I mean, I can remember I took my first meditation class when I was 30. There was no, I mean, no one was talking about this like 20 years ago. There's certain groups, you know, so small people, small groups of people that would talk about it.
And I've been a long time meditator now since, ever since, or pretty regularly. And I think that's where we can get the gift. I think there are two things that we learn through that process.
And I would encourage anyone who wants to know how to do this to reach out, or there are great apps that I wanted to recommend. And it does two things. One, we can learn the skill of focus.
So we can learn to put our attention on something and keep it there, which is really helpful. More so, we can also get an experience of, you know, we use the breath as sort of a way to get into it. But we can start to notice the things that are arising moment by moment, what you were talking about.
Like, I'm almost to a point where I can feel the cortisol in my body. And, you know, you've gotten a certain level of awareness, a certain level of depth to your ability to notice these things. And that's what meditation can help us.
I think, you know, it definitely can create states of relaxation and the like, but more so, which is fine. But more so, though, I think it can let us really develop that ability to notice what's happening, to notice what thoughts are arising, to notice what sensations are here, to notice the sounds and the sights and, you know, even with our eyes closed, the light, you know, sort of showing up behind our eyelids. So, we can develop more of that skill.
And I think when you talked, Cliff, about sort of the self-awareness or, you know, self-inquiry, self-recognition, whatever it is that we're doing introspection, if we can cultivate and develop our sense of awareness in that way, I think it's really invaluable. And then they've shown all the, you know, neurological things that can happen that can be really helpful to us along the way, too. But it just helps develop a different level of attention.
And that, I think, is really, yeah, everything to be able to shift our state. Yeah.
[Cliff] (1:02:08 - 1:02:15)
Well, that would definitely, meditation would be a whole other topic we could definitely go into. It's one of my favorites as well.
[Daphne] (1:02:15 - 1:02:15)
Yeah.
[Cliff] (1:02:15 - 1:02:54)
I think we should do it. You know, the Insight Timer app is one of my favorite apps for meditation. And the only reason why is because I've been tracking my streaks.
And if there's one area of my ego pride that still holds on is I cannot stop this. And that is the fact that today I will do my 720th day of meditation consecutively. I'm still at 36.1 thousand minutes since 2020. Love it.
[Daphne] (1:02:55 - 1:03:33)
So, yeah, let me mention the apps because I do think that, so Insight Timer is absolutely one of them. You can use it for free. And then they have a paid version, of course.
If you haven't meditated before, it's great. They have beginner classes on there. My other favorite app for really learning is Headspace.
And that, again, also has free sessions. And then the third is the Waking Up app with Sam Harris. And he has lovely talks, just endless numbers of talks, also has his approach to meditation on there.
So there's some really good applications that people can utilize to learn and to get a process in place and to, you know, guided, non-guided, all that stuff that's just really helpful. So.
[Cliff] (1:03:34 - 1:04:49)
Can I, I know we're not talking meditation. We're getting ready to wrap here. But since we're introducing this at the end, if anybody goes and downloads an app, I'd love to give you at least a few tips and pointers that has been helpful to me personally and I give to a lot of people who are being introduced to this.
Number one, don't buy anybody's one definition of what meditation is or what it should be. I've come to believe there's probably at least maybe 30, 40, maybe even 100 or more different versions of meditation. Yes.
Variations. And they're all valuable in and of their own. So if you get somebody that says, listen, you should get to the place where you have no thought at all.
Transcendental meditation. Don't let anybody try to persuade you that you're doing meditation wrong. If you could literally sit here and listen to this entire sentence that I'm saying right now from the beginning without end and thinking about what I'm saying right now, you are literally in a state of meditation, which means that you're literally focused on what Cliff is saying in the moment.
So if you caught that entire sentence, you have just meditated on what Cliff was saying.
[Daphne] (1:04:51 - 1:05:11)
Thank you so much for saying that. Yes, there are a thousand skillful means and thousands different. I mean, I was trained and you mentioned TM, Transcendental Meditation.
It's sort of an amalgam of sort of a mantra meditation. I mean, there's all different forms. You can do meditation with your walking.
I think what you're really getting at, Cliff, is life as a meditation.
[Cliff] (1:05:13 - 1:05:26)
Yeah, right. And I'm getting at the fact that whatever you do, don't ever, because this is what I really see a lot of people struggle with. I tried meditation and it just doesn't work for me.
I don't have the ability.
[Daphne] (1:05:26 - 1:05:27)
Yeah.
[Cliff] (1:05:27 - 1:06:10)
And I would just encourage anyone who feels that way to maybe write down what is it that I believe meditation is and have a conversation with somebody like myself or somebody who's into meditation and evaluate what my expectations of meditation ought to be. Because I really do believe anybody who is resistant to meditation is really missing something that could be incredibly beneficial if they are struggling with lower levels of consciousness of fear, guilt, shame, and all that other stuff. I believe that meditation in any form can help elevate your level of consciousness.
[Daphne] (1:06:10 - 1:07:22)
I do too. And I would agree with you. I mean, I think people could reach out to either of us to walk them through the meditation process.
And I think that's the, you know, we would advocate for that. I would advocate for that. And I think you're right.
I think there is a missing out in that regard. You know, I think of it as just sort of anything else that I would do to take care of myself. Like you went to the gym.
I did my workout. You know, you're doing your meditation. Why wouldn't you do it?
And I think that's helpful. And I also understand why people struggle with it. To your point, I think there are a lot of misunderstandings about what it is.
And, you know, unfortunately, by the way, in the West, we've been exposed to one particular type of meditation, which comes from Vipassana. And, you know, there are many more forms. You mentioned the eye earlier.
What is this eye that's even having the experience? You know, there's also forms of meditation where you're just really looking at like, well, who is the eye? Like what is noticing this thought?
And so there are a lot of different forms of meditation in that way. And I think it's beneficial for people to experiment and find out what works, you know, find out. I mean, no one can tell you what's going to work for you.
Yeah. In that regard. Well, anything else you want to say on that topic?
[Cliff] (1:07:23 - 1:07:32)
Tim Cynova Oh, gosh, we could go on forever. But I figure since we're well over an hour, we'll let people go about their daily routine and tune in next week to see what we have next.
[Daphne] (1:07:32 - 1:07:56)
Yeah, to see what's coming up next. Well, thanks for being with us. Please feel free.
Please know that you can reach out to us at CliffRavencraft.com, Daphne-Scott.com. And you can leave us a message if you go to Choose Your Own Adventure Podcast.com. You can find us there as well.
And then we have a put the link to leave us a voice message at Speedpipe. So I'll put that in the show notes.
[Cliff] (1:07:58 - 1:08:07)
Tim Cynova It will be in your show notes. In your app right now, there should be a little written blurb along with this episode. Click that link.
We want to hear from you.
[Daphne] (1:08:07 - 1:08:15)
Daphne-Scott.com We do want to hear from you. Ask us any questions. And if there's a topic you'd like us to discuss on the show, we would be more than willing to do it.
So let us know that as well.
[Cliff] (1:08:16 - 1:08:18)
Tim Cynova Or at least entertain the idea of doing it.
[Daphne] (1:08:18 - 1:08:19)
Daphne-Scott.com Yes.
[Cliff] (1:08:19 - 1:08:24)
I don't know, Daphne. I'm not committing to talk about anything and everything.
[Daphne] (1:08:24 - 1:08:25)
Daphne-Scott.com I don't know about that.
[Cliff] (1:08:26 - 1:08:31)
Tim Cynova So let's talk about the, what is it called? World Cup of soccer.
[Daphne] (1:08:32 - 1:08:43)
Daphne-Scott.com We could, but we would put it through the lens of consciousness. All right. Thanks for being with us.
We're going to wrap it up. See ya. Tim Cynova See ya.
