Life: The Ultimate Choose Your Own Adventure Podcast
Ep 6: Procrastination
[Daphne]
Good morning Cliff. We're live. We're live.
[Cliff]
Good morning. I think we should put this show off today. We could maybe just record later in the week.
[Daphne]
Yeah, you know, I haven't really been feeling like it either. I don't know. I mean, I feel like I should do the show today, but I just don't feel up to it either.
Maybe tomorrow I'll feel more like it.
[Cliff]
Maybe in an hour or two. I just warm up to it a little bit.
[Daphne]
Yeah, like, I don't know. There's just so many other things I have going on right now. That was a great introduction to the show.
We're gonna talk to you about resistance today. And I bucketed it in procrastination, we're calling it too.
[Cliff]
Yes, procrastination.
[Daphne]
Yeah, I think we're gonna give a flavor to this that'll feel a little different, but right now I'm gonna do our intro.
Let's do the intro. Here it goes.
[Cliff]
Daphne, I am ready to play.
[Daphne]
I'm ready to play. I'm ready for the adventure with some playfulness. Because you can only play with playfulness, I guess.
[Cliff]
So where did today's topic come from?
[Daphne]
Yeah, great question. So it came from a friend of mine, actually, who sent me a message. We were talking and then she said, one thing I would like to hear you guys talk about is resistance.
What, and these are specifically her questions, what do you do about it? What does it mean? How do you work through it?
And I said, what a perfect, perfect topic. Because I don't know about you, Cliff, but there can be times when you're wanting to, you gotta make the move in the game of life, or not. But you know you wanna make a move, or maybe you don't, but you have some resistance to it.
You're sort of.
[Cliff]
One of the things that I did is I was looking at the outline for today to find out what you had cooked up for a topic for us to discuss. And you used the word procrastination quite a bit in the outline. And so immediately it had a lot come up for me as my experience over the last several years with procrastination.
And used to feel a little bit of guilt, a little bit of shame around the idea of putting things off and not getting things done, led to some feelings of maybe I have a lack of self-discipline and all of those different things. And while there are still some aspects of, maybe some things ought to be done, or it'd be nice to really accomplish a couple of things. I've really evolved over the years when it comes to the topic of procrastination.
And even on my side of the stream, because we're not only recording this for a podcast episode, but we're streaming this live on the internet. You're streaming it out to your social channels, and I'm streaming this out to my Facebook and my YouTube channel. And I give it a title.
And so today I titled this thing, procrastination is a form of enlightenment. And that's where I kind of sit on this whole topic of resistance. I kind of like say, why am I resisting this?
And maybe that's not a bad thing.
[Daphne]
Yeah, well, okay. So I don't wanna jump too far ahead because I'm a word sort of person. I think words create worlds.
And I think oftentimes we, I, can not give enough distinguishing features about what I mean when I talk about certain things. So I wanna do that first. However, what you just did, Cliff, is you asked a question.
And I'm imagining that one of the ways you deal with whatever we're calling procrastination, resistance, and I'm gonna make some distinctions. You have found a way, when you said enlightenment, you have found a way to really source curiosity around like, wow, what is this? And to sort of, you know, to be able to source a certain level of curiosity, you are letting go of a lot of the judgment and criticism you might have of yourself.
And that still might lurk in the background. You know, we all have some version of that. But nevertheless, when you can get to that point.
So we're gonna talk about that. We get to sort of like, how do we work with this experience that so many of us have as human beings of this, what seems like procrastination. And that's a distinction I wanna make before we get into anything else.
Like, what are we really talking about here? Right, I see procrastination as more of what I would call a symptom of something else. And that something else underneath, I kind of have layers of this.
So there's like the resultant of procrastination. In other words, I'm aware, and that's the first thing. I have to be aware that there's something that I want to do or I want to experience or something.
So there has to be some level of awareness there to begin with. So let's just establish that. Underneath that though, there's this form of resistance.
And what I have found in myself and in talking, working, coaching clients, working with people, is there's this, and you'll get this right away, I think, there's this resistance to some experience, to something I am going to experience. And typically, it's an experience of feeling not so great. And I know that sounds counterintuitive because you would think like, well, if me not doing something is not making me feel great, then why wouldn't I go do the thing that would allow me to feel better, right?
But we have this reason, I just knocked in, by the way, I just knocked into my Stanley. Put that up. But we have some resistance.
It's really about an emotional experience. We don't want to feel a certain thing. So for example, for example, I may find myself procrastinating.
I'm trying to think of something I've procrastinated about. Oh, maybe I've procrastinated about doing my workout this morning. I was like, I woke up, I'm like, I don't want to do it this morning.
Now, to your point about enlightened, I just said I'm gonna do it at four o'clock today. It wasn't a big deal. Nevertheless, I could keep doing that.
And so if I look at it, I'm like, what is it that I don't want to experience that's creating this sort of resistance for me? So maybe I don't want the feeling of having to get out of bed earlier. I don't want, and the feeling that comes with that, or maybe I don't want to feel rushed, or maybe I don't, maybe I just don't want to feel my heart rate elevate.
I don't like how that feels. So there's some emotional experience or some feeling that we're resisting around doing the thing. And we start there.
And it sort of cascades itself, in my experience, it cascades itself into then what becomes the sort of form of procrastination. I don't know how that lands for you.
[Cliff]
I'm tracking with what you're laying down. And I would say there are certain elements of things of that nature that I identify with readily and easily. But when I think of procrastination, I think of it more along the lines of, okay, I've got this, I'll give you a perfect example.
It was back in September or October of last year. I recorded a live stream with my friend Jessica Rhodes on the topic of guesting on other people's podcasts. What's the value of it?
What's the benefit of it? How do you do it effectively? I mean, it's an incredibly powerful conversation.
The stream of that's in the archives of all of my live stream social media channels. However, the actual recording audio, high res version of that audio recording is still sitting right here on my desktop. I'm looking at it over here on my desktop.
And about two and a half weeks after that live stream, I had put it on my calendar, process, edit and publish Jessica Rhodes' interview as an episode of the Cliff Ravenscraft show. And podcast Answer Man. And when that day came along, I'm like, hmm, it's Friday.
You know what, I'm not gonna do that today. Let's move that to Saturday. And then Saturday, I moved it to Monday.
And Monday, I moved it to Friday. And I kept doing that and kept doing that. By the way, remember, this was recorded in September of 2023.
It is February 5th of 2024. I still have not done anything with that episode. Okay.
It's still on my calendar. But I don't know that there's anything in there that is an emotion that I'm trying to avoid, that there's some sort of resistance to an emotion. It's just that it's not a priority.
It's, I mean, when it comes down to it, what real value is there that if this were the last day of my life, if these were the last breaths that I was going to expend, if this was the last bit of time, effort, and energy I had, is this thing so important above and beyond all the other opportunities that exist for me today? And the answer to that question has always been no. So I put it off.
Eventually, one day, maybe it will be a priority. But up until now, it simply hasn't.
[Daphne]
Yeah, and I don't imagine that, okay, so what I hear you saying is you are intentionally just moving that to wherever you want to move it in your calendar, we'll call it, your calendar, and you're just doing it.
[Cliff]
And that's one example of something that is somewhat meaningless. But I also have a document from Boone County Occupational License. And this was, by the way, let me read this here.
February 28th, 2023. Okay. Your business has submitted tax returns with a payment to Boone County Occupational License indicating that business activity has been performed in Boone County, Kentucky.
In order to legally do so, you must complete an occupational license payroll tax application and submit it to our office with payment. Well, they already have the payment. The only thing is they're saying that it's a different business.
Okay. So my CPA says, hey, you've been paying yourself rent to cover your expenses of all the stuff. I filed that as a separate business.
And I'm like, why did you do that? I always just did this as a way of saying, hey, my business pays a portion of my utilities. I've just averaged it out.
He goes, well, I think there's some tax benefits for you. Well, he submitted it to Boone County and Boone County says, hey, you need to register another business. Well, I've been meaning to do that somewhat at some level for almost a year now.
On the 28th of this month, there'll be one year. This thing's been sitting on my desk for a year. I could care, it's $148 payment that they got over there that they don't know what to do with.
If they haven't sent me another letter yet, so it's not super important to them. I don't think I'm gonna go to jail for this thing. This thing is a very low priority.
And I'm like, eh, I'll deal with it when I deal with it. Yes. If ever.
If ever.
[Daphne]
And I'll ask you next year. You know, I'll write down to check in with you. I may or may not.
[Cliff]
I may or may not. Seriously, I mean, who are they to tell me what I should or should not be doing with my time, effort and energy? I paid myself some rent expense.
My CPA decided to pretend it's some sort of Ravenscraft rental property company. And I'm like, what? It's $148 tax payment.
Come on.
[Daphne]
So either of those things that you've mentioned, I don't imagine, and I wanna get into this one more. I wanna go back to my definitions in a second, but I don't imagine there are huge consequences.
[Cliff]
No consequences at all.
[Daphne]
Yeah, so there's not huge, huge consequences. So that carries a little bit of, I think some of maybe what I would call the gradations of how we're relating to the stuff that we say we're gonna do or not do. And what I still hear is that there's an intentional way you're gonna come to this, which makes total sense.
When we, and use the word priority, which I think is very important. When we talk about procrastination, so I took the Latin meaning, but I think what's interesting is with the Latin meaning of this word, it sort of is twofold. And I think this is some of what I'm talking about with consequence, just a little bit.
So one meaning, procrastinator, is to put off until tomorrow. Makes sense. The other part of it comes with the word acrazia, which means something against our better judgment.
I thought that was interesting.
[Cliff]
Something against our better judgment. And who determines which judgment is better than the other? That's the question I would have with that part.
Yeah, I think that's a great question. Is our better judgment, is it based upon our conditioned beliefs, the way that people have told us to evaluate what is good, what is bad, what is better, what is worse?
[Daphne]
Yes.
[Cliff]
And I've made this point of deconstructing so much of what I believe and just not having so many conclusions about what's good, what's bad, and all this other stuff.
[Daphne]
Yeah, well, and I think this is the key point, is whatever, first of all, when you're very clear about your priorities, I think this is critical. And I was thinking of my friend who brought this question, who's working for someone else, who's working in an organization who may not solely have total, this is a strange way to talk about it. I'm gonna say this, and then we're gonna probably walk it back, but may not have the entire ability to set the priorities or may have conflict, let's put it that way, a conflict of priorities, and it's better way to talk about it, conflict with priorities.
Nevertheless, when we're clear about what has precedent and what has a priority, I think that is greatly helpful. And you mentioned a couple of things in your examples that I think point to that, right? Like this isn't a priority.
This thing, it doesn't have a big consequence, which probably helps drive some of our priority making, probably. And there's a little bit of an experience we have with our future self. It's very, we're gonna talk about that a little bit in a relationship to time and our future self.
So there's that, but there's also that experience of just having the clarity, right? About not totally being driven by consequence, but also having the clarity. Like there may be something that has a consequence that you might say, look, I know there's a consequence attached to this if I don't do this soon.
And these other two things are much more important to me right now. Right. Right, that can be a reality too.
So I thought the definitions were interesting. Let's go back to the judgment part. And let's talk a little bit more about, yeah, who's judgment?
Let's talk about that. So Cliff, I'm gonna use the word should.
[Cliff]
Okay, that's fine.
[Daphne]
What are all the things I should be doing in a day?
[Cliff]
You shouldn't be doing anything. You could be doing anything. There's nothing you should do.
Anything that you should do is automatically going to happen. Chances are your heart is going to beat. You are going to breathe in and out.
These are the only things that should happen to sustain your life. And those things are gonna happen automatically. Yeah, hopefully.
Everything else is what you could do.
[Daphne]
Cause I gotta tell you, if I have to focus on my breathing, it's not gonna happen. I'm too busy. I have other things to do.
Thank goodness breathing as a priority takes care of itself, which most things do. So I wanna come back to that because I think this is the other part that can run counter sort of to our intuition a little bit is that we make up a lot of this stuff. You said it, like our past beliefs or beliefs that we still have or our mindsets and our conditioning and all these things that come into it.
Other things that people have told us, so on and so forth. And we end up where what's underneath the way that we get through this resistance is getting into some form of acceptance. And I have found in my own life, especially that when like I can take action on things, however, I can still be in this as I think the realm, if there was a misunderstanding about taking action that can make it look like we're not procrastinating.
I know a lot of times when I have and I've watched other people take action, but they're really not in a state of openness and acceptance. They're taking action from a place of should. They're actually still in a form of resistance.
Does that resonate with you?
[Cliff]
Yeah, yes, I've had a number of times where I've procrastinated on something and for whatever reason, I feel like this is something that I should be doing. It does not feel like a full body commitment. It feels like an obligation.
I may have at one time committed myself to it and said, this is what I'm going to do, but man, I really do not want to do this. But you know what? I'm finally, I'm gonna set aside these few hours and as much as I hate this thing, I am finally gonna get this freaking thing off of my shoulders.
[Daphne]
I love it.
[Cliff]
I'm not resisting this at all.
[Daphne]
You sound like the voice in my head. Exactly. And I think this is one of the misunderstandings around getting to what you said about mindful, what did it say?
Mindful procrastination is a form of enlightenment.
[Cliff]
Just procrastination itself is a form of enlightenment.
[Daphne]
Yeah, exactly. And this is what I watch people do quite a bit is they will bring themselves, they'll force themselves, something brings them, that gets them where they now are forced to take action. Now action has become a have to and this is where I was going with consequence, right?
It becomes a form of a have to and really you're still in a form of resistance. It just looks different. It just looks different.
So my sort of insight around this is that the experience of taking action from that place usually also doesn't, it doesn't create the highest level of resonance for us. It doesn't feel as alive as it could when we're taking action from a place of first acceptance of even acceptance like I don't wanna do this and can I just be with that? And I don't know if this is true for you, Cliff, but I had to really work on owning my no for quite a while.
Like just having a no to the things that I didn't want to do. Or you mentioned maybe I committed to something and then Friday rolled around and I didn't want to go to the party anymore, right? Sounded great at first and then I just didn't want to do it.
There's no one that's forcing me to go to a party. I don't have to be at the party. I didn't say I was gonna do anything at the party.
I just don't wanna go. So getting in a space of really owning our no, I think it's the other part and I think that is where some of this resistance comes from as well because I don't know about you, but how many people do we wanna try to please? Right, how many people do we wanna avoid disappointing?
I'll let you react to that.
[Cliff]
So for me, I definitely have had a lot of experience of that in my lifetime. And thankfully, first of all, being free flowing with the no, I discovered for me the answer to that was being very clear on what my yes is.
[Daphne]
Yes, agreed.
[Cliff]
Once I have clarity on what I say yes to, what is my desired values? And values, I mean by ends values. I'm talking about what emotional states do I most want to experience?
What are the things that will allow me to attain those emotional experiences? And when I discovered that all my emotional experience of life can be manufactured from within, then it's like, okay, now what do I want to create knowing that all of this is possible, that there are a lot of opportunities and things? It's like, okay, these are the things that, these are my commitments, these are my priorities, these are the things that I'm choosing today that I'm saying yes to.
And therefore, by default, my answer to everything and everyone is no to everything. It's just no. My kids, all three of my kids, if you ever get a chance to chat with them, ask them about, hey, just say, what is your dad's response to any and every request you ever ask of him?
And they will all tell you his immediate answer is no. Anything, to everything. And they know that they must create compelling arguments on why I should reconsider and give a yes.
And they're going to not win that for a very long time. It's just that I have set my mind what I'm doing today, and anything to deviate from that is a no, unless you can convince me otherwise. So make your best sales pitch and we'll talk about it.
So that's the first thing. And then the second thing that you said was, how many people do I wanna please? None, because I have no such power.
It's not within me. How many people do I wanna disappoint? I have no such power.
So I can only do what I do or not do what I don't do, and everyone else is responsible for their own pleasing or disappointment. That is, they are doing their pleasure, they are doing their disappointment within themselves based upon their expectations, their ways, and they're externally putting their emotional well-being externally. And I just refuse to play a part of their doing that.
So I don't concern myself with pleasing anyone. I don't concern myself with disappointing anyone.
[Daphne]
Yeah, well, and I think that's really the... First of all, you mentioned the thing about with your kids to me before we talked about this, and I actually thought it was great. And also in giving space to that too, where they would sort of try to get you to do something and you were like, look, don't come to me in front of your friends and say, hey, can I go stay the night at so-and-so's house?
We're gonna have a conversation, right? I remember you talking to me about this and I thought it was brilliant. And I think when we get in the space of wanting to, well, I mean, you said it, sourcing our approval from outside of ourselves, this creates that experience, right?
I don't wanna disappoint someone, I want to... And I think that's the form of feeling bad. It's a way that we feel crappy.
So one of the things that will make me feel crappy is I feel like I'm gonna say no to this and I'm gonna disappoint someone. So I don't want that feeling. I don't wanna feel that and I wanna come back to your ends experience.
[Cliff]
You would have to have the belief that your action is disappointing them.
[Daphne]
Yes, yes, you would.
[Cliff]
And I just wanna clarify, I have no such belief.
[Daphne]
Right, exactly. So for people who still do.
[Cliff]
For people that might still. Okay.
[Daphne]
For people that might still or have that experience, right? It's being able to catch those things and being able to see how we think that by having that belief, we think we're going to avoid that experience. And instead have an experience now being in resistance, doing something that we're actually really not aligned with doing.
And that actually leaves...
[Cliff]
There's the key.
[Daphne]
Yes.
[Cliff]
That's the key right there.
[Daphne]
Yes.
[Cliff]
The fact is, is we're having a negative emotional experience. Yes. Because what is on our list is not in alignment somewhere of what we desire.
Exactly. And that, I think that's the real enlightenment here. It's like, oh my gosh, why do I not?
Some people said, Cliff, how do I overcome procrastination? By the way, I know some mindset hacks. I can tell you all about neuro associations, the pain and pleasure.
And I could learn a little bit about your current programming. And then I could wire you up in such a way that you're off to the gym every single day and you'll never eat another grain of sugar for the rest of your life. I can do that.
Yep. But it's not what I recommend. It's like, hey, first and foremost, before we talk about this, why is this important to you?
Have you ever thought about the fact that maybe you don't wanna work where you're working now anymore? Yes. Have you ever thought that maybe what you've been doing for the last 10 years and is generating a half million dollars a year for your revenue of your solopreneur business, have you ever thought of maybe just shutting all of that down and going and doing what you wanna do next that lights you up?
[Daphne]
Yeah. No. Actually, the truth is, yes, I have.
And no, because I have these beliefs, I have this way that I'm wiring this all up. And I can't even get underneath all of that because I'm unwilling to accept part of this. I'm unwilling to accept that I have this belief or I'm unwilling to accept my negative experience right now and just not be with that just for a second.
And so we do all kinds of things. We create dramas. I'm gonna march in and tell the boss off.
I'm gonna say how horrible it is to work here. And all of these things that we do versus just imagine if I just said, this is great and I don't wanna be here anymore. I love you and I don't wanna be in this marriage.
And I think that's some of the mind shift parts of this that we also fight is that two things can be true. And I wanted to bring this in. This is the big, this is what I found with myself with the yes and, is that two things can be simultaneously happening.
I can really, well, I think work is a great one. Really see sort of a path and how this is perfect for everyone else. And it's no longer for me.
It's no longer my path, right? I recently let go of all, I used to be a licensed physical therapist and I am no longer a licensed physical therapist. I let all those things go, right?
Speaking of getting the letter that, hey, your license is due. And I just remember looking at it and clearly going, it was an email actually. I remember looking at it and just clearly going, nope.
[Cliff]
I had the same experience. It was at the end of 2008, right before leaving my career as an insurance agent, I had renewed my license because there was still that thing. What if this thing that I'm going to go do doesn't work out?
Well, I'm gonna have my license, just I can always come back. But at the end of my first year, it came time to renew my license. And again, then I'm like, nope, I don't think I need that anymore.
[Daphne]
Yeah, I'm not doing it. Yeah. It was very clear.
[Cliff]
I'm not gonna renew that. Right. Yeah, it was a clear decision.
[Daphne]
Yeah, I didn't need to toil over it. It wasn't, it was just a very clear thing. So when we can get into that space and notice what our beliefs are, and you got to it right away, right?
What our beliefs are, what's this? I like to say, what are the stories that we're telling ourselves, right? What's really happening here?
And then what is it that we're trying to avoid? What's the negative experience we're trying to avoid? Well, I don't wanna feel the feeling that I will have when I feel like, and it is a story to some degree, I've disappointed someone.
Well, what's that feel like? Have I disappointed someone? I don't, I mean, I'm not responsible for their disappointment at the end of the day.
[Cliff]
Daphne, it would be helpful for me because sometimes I struggle to involve myself in talking at depth about hypothetical situations.
[Daphne]
Yeah, for sure.
[Cliff]
Can we get into some possible real case, real life scenarios? One of the things that comes to me, for example, is I used to want to work out and be physically active, but I would put that off for various different reasons. And if I get there, it's like, okay, so well, the reason why I was procrastinating on that had everything to do with my belief systems.
And what I was going to feel. Number one, it's gonna be inconvenient was the first thing that came to my mind. I have to get in my car, I have to drive to the gym and potentially sit in traffic and all this other stuff.
So that it's inconvenient. Number two, it takes up so much time. So my time could be better used over here.
I could get an earlier start to my day and all this other stuff. The fact is, is that I go in there, everybody looks all healthy and buff and stuff like that. And I look like me.
And I wonder, are people going to judge me for the way that I look as much as I'm judging myself for the way that I look? Not to mention the fact that it seems like every time I go to the gym, which is sporadically, but every time I do, I come away and I'm so sore. It's somewhat painful and all this other stuff.
And so when it came down to it, there was a number of reasons why I would procrastinate on regular, consistent physical activity. But going to your friend who asked the question, how do you overcome something like that? Well, first and foremost is like, well, is it important for me to even work out?
I mean, I could just choose that it's just not a priority, which by the way, I did for a very long period of my time. But the reality is, is like, I think I would actually like this to become a priority. I think there's a number of reasons why working out would be beneficial to me.
I think I'd be more, I'd have more energy. I'd be more productive. I'd get more creative.
I would be more physically healthy, maybe potentially even live longer with some factors that are inside of my control. So I think there's a number of reasons why I would like to stop procrastinating on going to the gym on an ongoing, consistent basis. So in answer to your friend's question, how do I overcome that?
I have to actually go in and say, well, what do I believe about going to the gym? And I've shared what my beliefs were before. But let me share with you what I had done.
I had gone through a program called Creating Lasting Change. And he talks about, Tony Robbins. And he talks about the fact that it's the associations to pain and pleasure that cause us to be motivated to do something or not do something.
And that's where you're getting at. What are the emotions that I'm trying to avoid? I was trying to avoid the emotion of feeling inconvenient, losing time, all of these other negative things that I thought about every time I thought about going to the gym.
Well, what happened was I actually started to rewire my beliefs. So for example, number one, I love the fact that I'm commuting to the gym. It's a 20-minute drive.
And now it's an opportunity for me to listen to personal and professional development. And that nurtures my mind, and it gives me a different way of thinking. And also, I've learned, scientifically it's proven, that when I'm in motion, that what I'm hearing and learning actually sticks in a different way.
And so there are certain things that Tony Robbins has said in certain ways. I can tell you where I was, what I was passing the moment I heard that the first time. So it's like, oh man, driving to and from the gym is an excellent way for me to learn, to study, to grow.
And then while I'm at the gym, you know what? It's amazing to be surrounded by other people who have a commitment to their physical fitness and health. You know what?
And these people have great looking physiques because of that consistent investment. And I know that if I make that consistent investment, I'm going to see a better physique, and I will be like them. And you know what?
Some of these people may judge me. I have no control over that. But I do have control over whether or not I judge myself.
And the other thing is, is that, you know what? I've actually come to the place where since I, there was a time when I'd been going to the gym for a couple of years pretty consistently. And so there would be people who come in, and it's obvious that they're at the very beginning of a similar journey.
And they're not very physically fit and stuff like that. And rather than judging, it's like, oh man, look at that person. And it's like, wow, what a, I think it's so great that that person's here.
And it's like, wow, I bet you there's a lot of people who used to think very positively about my decision to be here in spite of where I had allowed myself to get physically. And so then I started to think, it's like, well, gosh, every time I go to the gym, I do notice that I start to feel a bit of energy. I have more energy after a workout than I did before a workout.
And then I recognize that dopamine hits, and it's just like, ah, this feels good. I feel great. And there's my, just the way my brain is thinking, I'm more clear, I have more creative thoughts.
While working out, I can have entertainment, or I can listen to more. I mean, there's so many reasons I love, and I would never miss going to the gym. So that for me is a real practical way of something that I did procrastinate, and I did want to avoid it because there was a lot of negative things I thought about the idea of doing that thing.
But I didn't actually say, okay, well, I'm gonna wait until I almost die again in the hospital before I go and do something. I'm literally going to actually change my thoughts and what I feel about it by changing my beliefs and my associations to it.
[Daphne]
Yes, I mean, I think that is the perfect description. By the way, there's probably no one that can relate to your experience of exercising. No one's ever had that experience.
And that's what I was getting at. I think it can be with anything, right? A task that I need to do.
And so much of the, so many times this is talked about, and I really appreciate that description. It's so great, going all the way through that. So many times we talk about procrastination as a time management issue.
It's organize yourself. As a matter of fact, I used to use, I think you'll love this. I used to use organizing my calendar as a way of procrastinating.
But I didn't.
[Cliff]
I've done that so many times.
[Daphne]
So many times, or clean something. That's always a big one for people. So yeah, it's not about the time management issue.
And I think that's how procrastination gets talked about quite a bit. And your description was so perfect. Again, really stemming from getting under the beliefs that you had, right?
Now you had also, in that example, at some point became aware of a greater negative thing that you also didn't want to experience if you didn't take care of yourself. And by the way, there's a million ways to do that, right? So I get that, you know, we know that.
But one of the things that you knew you didn't want to experience was dying in the hospital. Or going to the hospital, right? And so what I loved about your process, Cliff, that you described, is you found your ways of shifting not only your beliefs, but giving yourself, and there's a psychologist that talks about this, Judson Brewer, who I really like.
He's the Director of Research and Innovation at Brown University in their Mindfulness Center. He calls giving your brain a bigger, better offer.
[Cliff]
Yes.
[Daphne]
And I just love that. It's sort of like, okay, well, what's the bigger, better offer? Well, I get to work on my personal development, my 20-minute drive to the car, to and from the gym.
I get to experience my learning through my body, right? All of these things that you described, and that became a bigger, better offer, versus, well, it's gonna take too much time. Well, it's inconvenient, right?
Well, I'm gonna get judged. And so working through that. And I think that's really getting through our belief systems, and accepting where we're at in that moment, but also finding that bigger, better offer for ourselves, I think is just key.
It's critical.
[Cliff]
Yeah.
[Daphne]
Yeah.
[Cliff]
And when you shift your beliefs like that, you take something that seemed to be a burden, and it's one of the biggest, it's like one of the coolest gifts that you're giving yourself. It's like, oh, this is my me time.
[Daphne]
Yeah. I mean, any of those. So I had the exact, or not exact, but similar experience.
You know this about me, but getting back into exercising, taking care of myself. I mean, in 2014, I think, I'm about five, five on a good day.
[Cliff]
Probably closer to five.
[Daphne]
You know, I weighed about 170 pounds. I was probably the most deconditioned that I had been in a really long time, between 2014, 15. You knew this, you were part of my journey on this.
And getting myself back into a routine, really starting to, not just the exercise part of it, but what that all was a result of was me not taking care of myself. I wasn't sleeping. I wasn't eating well.
I had really, just was under an enormous amount of stress with work and my emotional life. I'd left a relationship, a long-term relationship. So there were many factors that were happening at that same time.
And what I knew was important to me was taking care of my health. At the end of the day, I knew that was more important than the road I was on, right? And kind of making all the stories that I made.
One of the big stories I had, Cliff, was, well, it's too late.
[Cliff]
Hey.
[Daphne]
Isn't that a good one? It's too late. I can't do it.
I've gone too far. And that was a really good belief. And so I thought, well, yeah, exactly.
So I'm like, well, what's the better option here? I mean, you can continue. Continuing down that road isn't gonna help you.
Clearly, it's gonna keep you where you've been. So is there another way to look at this? And, oh my God, I was like, maybe it is too late, but the truth is you're here anyway, so you might as well do something.
Right, who knows? I don't know if that's true. I'm here anyway.
And so working through that and also giving myself a moment of acceptance. And I'm a big fan of this approach because of what you mentioned right at the top, all of the judgment that we can have and the self-criticism that we can. I mean, the self-criticism that I had in that moment, probably the worst that I've ever had.
I mean, everybody can have a little bit of judgment, but it was pretty harsh. If I played out what was going on in my mind at the time, it was pretty harsh. So getting to some level of acceptance, like, look, this is simply what is for right now.
You can continue on that path if you like, and that's fine. You can do that. However, if you find that you have a bigger vision for yourself, if you find that you have something else that you would like to experience, Daphne, this is all the voice in my head, perhaps you might wanna start taking steps in that direction.
And what would be the one step that you can take right now? Here's the great learning that I had. I have never yet, and it could happen, it could happen, the opposite could happen.
I have never yet completed a workout and finish and thought to myself, man, I wish I wouldn't have done that.
[Cliff]
I have never had that feeling either. And I've had some workouts where I went out to the car and I literally had to lift up my arm to the steering wheel because I completely worked my biceps and triceps to failure.
[Daphne]
Yes, I've had workouts like that.
[Cliff]
There were times where the next day, I literally had to climb up the steps on my hands and knees because my quads had no strength in them anymore. I destroyed those things. And Dom's delayed onset muscle soreness is a real thing.
For days. Wow, so much pain. But you know what's crazy?
[Daphne]
Yeah.
[Cliff]
Is I actually loved, the feeling of pain that comes from knowing that you've literally destroyed every bit of tissue in your muscle is amazing. It is such a great feeling. It hurts, but it is such a great feeling.
[Daphne]
You know you've done something. Yes. Something is happening in there, yeah.
I mean, I've never had that experience. So I've learned that. So my bigger, better offer to myself, right?
I've never done a workout yet where I have finished and said to myself, I wish I wouldn't have done it. That was really, I mean, it's been hard. I'm not saying I haven't had hard workouts.
Absolutely, plenty. But I always feel better afterwards, always. So I think getting to that experience too can be really helpful.
So as people are working through their acceptance, they're working through, what is it that is really, truly a priority for themselves? And I wanna come back to obligation. And I think you just did a show on obligation.
I thought you did some show recently on obligation. Maybe I'm just making that up, some version of that.
[Cliff]
I do all sorts of stuff. But I can tell you my favorite quote about obligation is, most people are under-committed and over-obligated.
[Daphne]
Yes, exactly. And you know this, my favorite quote in that same vein is from Gay Hendricks. And he says, you'll never have enough time to do the things you don't wanna do.
[Cliff]
Yeah, and that for me is the procrastination. It's like, rather than trying, because I do think there are some things that we put off or procrastinate on, that quite frankly, not that we should do, but when it comes down to it, we really do wanna get it done. There's a level of, I'd like to actually accomplish this.
I'd like to do it. I see the value and the importance of having it done. I'm not all that excited about doing it.
And so I have four, so I have these coaching cards that I make on my desk. And so on the other side of procrastination is a form of enlightenment, I said, when I find myself procrastinating, I will ask myself, and there are four questions. Could I do something that would make this fun?
[Daphne]
There we go.
[Cliff]
So that's the changing the neuro-associations. Number two, could I seek help in getting this done? Three, could I delegate this?
And number four, oftentimes my favorite, could I just delete it? Just stop moving it to the next week, just delete it. If it comes back, I can maybe find it, I could recreate it, whatever, but just, maybe the Boone County thing just goes in the trash.
[Daphne]
I don't know. Throw it in the trash right now. Or maybe you wanna just make a reminder for yourself to check in in a year if they haven't contacted you.
[Cliff]
Well, it's February 28th is coming up. It's coming up on its one year anniversary. My CPA is probably gonna do the same thing with our rent expenses this year.
And maybe just maybe this year will be the year I go and create a new occupational license for Ravenscraft Rental.
[Daphne]
We'll find out when you get there. So let's come back to, because I mentioned this, we'll find out sooner.
[Cliff]
I was just picturing in my mind, what would it look like? What are the other tax benefits of having Ravenscraft Rental?
[Daphne]
There might be some, we don't know.
[Cliff]
There might be some.
[Daphne]
We'll find out.
[Cliff]
We'll find out.
[Daphne]
We'll find out sooner. Yeah, so come back to the questions too. So this was the other part.
Once I think we can accept where we're at in the moment, then we are able to source some curiosity. And you said that at the top of the show too. Like, how can we be curious about, well, what is this?
Like, I notice that I'm telling myself that I could do these things, or I should do these things. What's that all about, right? Do I, am I really called to do those things?
I mean, your four questions are perfect. But when we are in a space of judgment and criticism of ourselves, and feeling the fear of what we may be, what we may experience, but maybe I have to work on a spreadsheet and I'm gonna feel, I don't wanna feel bored. I find it boring to work on spreadsheets, for example.
Right, boring to put input data, right? I can ask myself a series of questions. I loved your last one, can I delete it, right?
But I can, if when I'm curious about my experience and I'm curious about what that is, then I can get underneath it. And I can't do that without accepting myself first and accepting what's really happening. Then I can source curiosity and come to a very, and maybe, maybe the word that I have at the end of that is no, right?
Yeah, maybe. This needs to get, I would like to get these spreadsheets done. I'm not the one to do it though.
I'm not, I don't enjoy working with spreadsheets. I don't enjoy inputting data. Somebody else must do that.
Or maybe that's been my job for 12 years is I'm the person who works with spreadsheets, but now I'm not. I'm no longer the person who works with spreadsheets, right? So the sooner we can, right?
The sooner that we can get to some of these sort of experiences and be enlightened around our procrastination or what we're calling procrastination. So now I think we're really flipping this on its head because I think we've had to name this experience so that we could talk about it in some way.
[Cliff]
Yeah. Yeah, and I think the name is apropos. I think the idea is something that I have put on my to-do list and or calendar and I consistently don't do it when it's due.
I think that's a real thing that happens. I still, there's still plenty of things that I procrastinate. I've just talked about the Boone County license thing.
I'm sure the Jessica Rhodes podcast interview, that's not the only one, by the way. I procrastinated on another number of things, but that's just a number of things that I could do. Yes, you could.
But that is another thing that has been so helpful is I don't think of any of those things as things that I should do. Now, at some level, there's a, this might be arguable, this tax form for Boone County clerk's office and that's the closest thing to a should, but even then, it's really something that I could do. It's something I could take care of and all this other stuff.
What's the worst consequence? And when it really comes down to it, it's still something that I could do. It's not something that I should.
It's just something I could.
[Daphne]
Right.
[Cliff]
And what are the real benefits and values of doing that? What's the cost of not doing it? And all the other stuff.
But yeah, but I still think there is this thing called procrastination. And I think that, one of the things that I'd love to talk about in a future episode is the map of consciousness by Dr. David R. Hawkins.
[Daphne]
Yes.
[Cliff]
And it's the idea of living in that guilt, in that shame, in that self-judgment, that self-criticism, that fear, that uncertainty, everything which he talks about calibrates below 200 on the map of consciousness.
[Daphne]
I think we should talk about that.
[Cliff]
And if we could get in, we'll just drop that topic right there and say we'll come back to it. But once we get ourselves to a level of consciousness above 200, where we start having courage, is the turning point, and we are only occasionally dipping into fear, only occasionally dipping into some guilt, but they're more along the lines of, it's a check engine light on the dashboard that says that something's not operating according to manufacturer specs.
[Daphne]
Yeah.
[Cliff]
The way things really could be to give us the optimal experience of life. And that's why I say procrastination is a form of enlightenment. It's telling you that, hey, something's not aligned here with your values.
[Daphne]
Yes, and that's it. And I wanna come back to being sort of the over-obligated. So there's the things that I've told myself I want to do.
Then there are these, I wanna define this, there are quote agreements I've made with other people that I may have a complete no to keeping. And that is also the big rub I think that people get themselves into, Cliff, and I don't know if this is true for you too, but just saying these things, that we've made these agreements, like, yeah, I'll meet you at five o'clock. I don't wanna meet you at five o'clock.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
[Daphne]
I don't wanna be there. And I think that's the other part of this too, is when it's something like between you and Boone County, that's one part of it. It's when we've made, we've over-obligated, or obligate, I don't wanna say over-obligated, obligated ourselves in any way, right?
Our level of consciousness then, it is jingly. We're not aligned. I think of it as sort of, how I think of it as sort of two guitar strings.
When they're in tune, there's just this beautiful resonance there. And when they're not, you can hear it. It's wobbly, right?
It sounds very wobbly. So yeah, I think we should talk about that. And so what is it like then to move from this space, to have this thing we call procrastination be that check engine light for us?
And instead of coming at it from a form of judgment and criticism of ourselves, really coming to it from a perspective of what is it telling us, right? What is it telling, yeah.
[Cliff]
What would I have to believe to feel the way that I feel about this task that I somehow at some level feel is important? What do I have to believe about this thing? That's the first question.
What would I have to believe to feel this way?
[Daphne]
Yes, yes. I think that's the whole thing. So making sure that people understand it's not a time management problem.
One of the scientists that I read, he did a study in 2013, said, it's an emotion regulation issue. I think emotion regulation is a little strange of a term. However, what that person and what these researchers are pointing to is exactly what we're talking about.
Like, what would I have to believe to be creating this experience that if I don't stay in this job, right? If I don't keep doing this work, that it means something about me or that I'm gonna disappoint people or all of the negative effects that I think are gonna come out of this that therefore tie me and chain me to this thing and now I'm not wanting to do any of it.
[Cliff]
Yeah. And there's also this quote and it's from an ancient book of wisdom called Proverbs. And it says that, without vision, the people shall perish.
And having a vision of what's valuable, what's important to you, what you're looking to create in this world, what you want to experience. Without that, you will perish in this endless decision of what should or shouldn't be done, what you should or should not commit yourself to and the obligations you have. And I'll give you a perfect example of this because again, I like to deal with concrete real life examples.
I have a client that I'm working with and she currently sells Facebook ads. She's a digital marketing expert and she is incredible at it. Although she's as bored with that as I was back in the day when I was teaching people how to get rid of the buzzing noise in their podcast audio after more than 12 years of teaching people how to podcast.
And so I'm like, listen, I get it. You don't wanna pick up more Facebook ads but you and you want to create a profitable career as a coach. Currently, you have not had at least four, five or 10 clients say yes to a coaching proposal yet, which means there's no income coming in consistently to replace your income from your Facebook advertising.
So if you want my honest, real advice, go get more Facebook ad clients while having more coaching experiences, making more proposals and working through all of the no's until you get about five to 10 people who say yes. And the more consistent you get with people who say yes, the income will go up. But here's the situation.
I do not recommend that you continue to sell Facebook ads if you're going to hate every minute of selling Facebook ads. Just as an example. So here's the situation.
We need to change how you're framing your experience. You need to see that every Facebook ad customer, every minute you devote to putting an ad online for a customer is you doing something that you're incredibly gifted at, that you know how to do, you're efficient at it. People already have this issue and they're willing to give you money to fund your growing of the work that you want to do as a coach.
What a gift that is. And so what I do is I actually create a different neuro-association to selling Facebook ads. Every minute that I get paid to do Facebook ads is a minute that I'm getting paid the financial resources necessary to give people complimentary experiences of my coaching so that after a session or two, I could ask them, would you like to have a conversation about what it would look like for you and I to have an ongoing paid coaching relationship?
And eventually you'll get so good at that that people start saying yes to that. And eventually you'll be able to take less and less Facebook ads and you'll go full-time into this. And then all of a sudden, now that person used to procrastinate on their Facebook ad activities and now they're actually fully engaged.
And it's not like they're like, oh wow, I love this so much, I don't know that I need coaching anymore. It's no, it's the fact that they love coaching and they're so looking forward to building a profitable coaching business that that's allowed them to enjoy the process of doing the Facebook ads for a season.
[Daphne]
Yeah, and I mean, you sort of flipped it around, right? Like flipping the script on, but I think that's the bigger part of what you're getting at too, Cliff, is that neural association, right? Which is what we're talking about or what Judson Brewer called the better offer for ourselves and how do we actually relate to these things and how do, and what I liked about what you just said there too is that there's what I would call almost like a transition flip, you know, that's happening and giving that the space to really, to allow that client to have that experience too.
And what you talked about, I think some of the, I guess some of the, when we talk about zone of genius and being a zone of competence, you and I know zone of genius, right? We get that, we got that from Gay Hendricks and in his book, The Big Leap, we can think of it as a big leap, right? I'm gonna jump from here to here, right?
I've got to scrap all this and start all new, which people have done and some have done effectively. Also, there can be this sort of what you just talked about. Hey, look, what about this?
Instead of just hating this every minute, what would it look like if we did it this way? And that's, yeah, it's really pretty brilliant.
[Cliff]
A lot of people, when they watched me in 2017, I had read The Big Leap, I think it was in September of 2017. And then in November of 2017, I had, like within that two month period of time, I had made the decision, I'm going to put an end to all podcast consultant related financial income activities. And two months later, it was over.
By the way, when I announced it in September, you've got one year to take podcasting A to Z, that's it. If you don't take podcasting A to Z within the next 12 months, you are never going to get that opportunity. And then it was like, hey, you've got 30 days to sign up because I'm doing my last one.
It's coming to an end. So a lot of people who were not aware of the behind the scenes thought that I did make a big leap within a very short period of time. But this was September, 2017, when I read The Big Leap.
But I started the transition of Podcast Answer Man to the Mindset Answer Man, or the mindset and business coaching that I do today. That started in January, 2015, when I began to ask myself the question, what would life look like if I just coached people around mindset and had nothing to do with the technical aspects of podcasting? That was in January, 2015.
And I started to work the process. And I started this little bit of dipping the toes in the waters. I put a podcast episode out to my audience and said, hey, I'm willing to do for the first time in a long time, I haven't done one-on-one coaching for years, but if you'd like me to be your one-on-one coach, it's $3,500, it includes this number of sessions within this period of time.
Here's the caveat. The word podcast or any technical aspect of podcasting must not be discussed during any of our sessions. And I'm like, I wonder if anybody will take me up on this.
And they sold out instantly. And then I did that again. And then I'm like, oh, wow, people are willing.
And then I tried other little things and worked live in-person workshops with no podcast technology and talk. And it's like, oh, wow. And then I went to these conferences and I was like, oh, I could do this.
And then I read The Big Leap and I'm like, well, how long am I gonna wait before I make the leap? I mean, it's time. And so it's kind of like my kids have had fish over the years, right?
And sometimes you want to change their water. And it's funny enough that on the front cover of the book, The Big Leap, it's a fish jumping from one bowl into another fish bowl. But one of the things that I find fascinating as a metaphor is you don't wanna actually fill the aquarium up with sink water and then instantly take your fish that's in the bag of water that was from the old one and put them straight into the thing.
No, you need that water to get to the right temperature because that fish is not going to be able to acclimate to the new environment instantaneously. It has to be a rather slower process. You have to give it, you might need to work on the conditioning of the environment.
There's so much that metaphor. So much. That's just jumping straight in is not a good idea.
[Daphne]
I have not found it to be a great idea myself or for most people. And I also, my experience making these shifts in my experience also was very similar to yours. I've left two corporate jobs asking myself the question of what could it look like if I were to sing and dance my way through life, what would that look like?
And those moments, as you're sort of, I loved you sharing that story, as you sort of are transitioning into that, you're letting yourself, I think a couple of things, letting the water warm up is a really good one. Also, when you start setting the vision for yourself to live your life the way that you want to live it, to do the work that you wanna do in the world, I have found that my neurological system, my temperature setting has to be willing to get that high, right? I mean, Hendricks talks about that and we should just talk about that.
I know you've done episodes on it and so have I, but it takes a minute for your neurological system to get that way. I mean, go back to the levels of consciousness that you talked about with David Hawkins, right? We're stepping into a new zone.
So it's gonna take just a breath or two or 10 or a thousand to allow ourselves to wire ourselves, to get to that level of wiring, right? And into that level of space. And so I think if we can continue to have some acceptance and some understanding of ourselves and source curiosity, I think we can get to these things and move through these forms of what seems like resistance or feels like procrastination, feels like us fighting these emotions, because I think we get on the other side of it.
And then Cliff, here's where it gets really dicey, I think, or spicy. I'm gonna say spicy. Why wouldn't we wanna feel good all the time?
[Cliff]
Yeah. Right? And what is wrong with feeling good all the time?
I'll never forget the first time I ever read that question in The Big Leap. And I'm like, my first reaction, no kidding. What a stupid question, as if that were possible.
[Daphne]
What a dumb question. Isn't it me feeling bad that makes the feeling good worth it?
[Cliff]
Exactly. And I'll never forget, it took about two and a half weeks to at least accept, what if it were possible to feel good and have my life go well all of the time? Only to about a month or two later, actually have a full body commit, I am committed 100%, I will do whatever it takes to feel good and have my entire life go well all of the time.
And that was a transitional period.
[Daphne]
Yeah, it really is a transitional period. And so I love how we've gone from procrastination to this experience, because I do think that underneath it, what we're getting at is how we set up our beliefs and how we are working with the stuff going on in our mind. And once you get on that, once you're starting to get on the other side of, okay, what is this procrastination experience?
What is this thing that I'm resisting? And you start working through that, then you start to realize you're getting to like, well, what do I want my life to look like? What do I want to experience?
[Cliff]
Yes. And that's why I don't think we've actually taken any leap away from the actual topic of procrastination. Procrastination enlightens you to the fact that there's something in your experience of life that isn't what you want at some level.
And if you could just see it for that and say, what's behind all of this? And there may be there, you may want to at times create different ways of framing and associating the neurons in your brain to pleasure to get yourself to take action on some things that you might feel is important to get done. That's right.
[Daphne]
That's exactly right.
[Cliff]
But you also may find that you want a small or radical shift in your experience of life. And all of this is incredibly powerful. And it's why when somebody comes to me and they say, listen, I am stuck.
I can't get myself to get this stuff done. I'm like, this is awesome. Because I know there's a lot to be learned from this experience.
[Daphne]
And now we can work through it. I love it. And it is awesome.
So if you have found yourself, you're listening, thank you so much for the question too. And letting us talk about this. But if you're finding yourself in a resistance, I know we know just what to do, right?
You know just what to do. And I think we just wrap up the show. So much we can talk about.
Yeah. Yeah, so much more.
[Cliff]
So much.
[Daphne]
So much more. So we hope you enjoyed the show. You can find us at chooseyourownadventurepodcast.com.
You can leave us a message and I'll put the link in the show notes to do that. If you'd like to leave us a voice message or if you'd like to hear us talk about more. I think Cliff, you had some requests.
We're gonna talk about the levels of consciousness. I think that's a great.
[Cliff]
Oh, I can't wait.
[Daphne]
That has everything to do with how we're playing the game. Not that we're playing the game. It has everything to do with how we're playing the game.
And there are a lot of ways to play the game. So you can find us there. You can also find Cliff at cliffravenscraft.com.
And I highly recommend. Yep, cliffravenscraft.com. Yep, and check out his shows and you can find me at daphne-scott.com.
But we will be with you all. Oh, by the way, next week, we will be recording on a different day. We'll be doing the show on a different day.
So. Awesome, sounds good. We'll see when that is.
All right, well, thanks for being with us and we look forward to more great, exciting adventures.
